Fabric Wing Hurricane V7203

[ClaudioN]

Hello BMers,

 

while waiting for my Arma Hurricanes, today I had a look at a few Hawker Hurricane pictures. I am sure I had already looked at this many times: the picture was reportedly taken in July 1940 and the pilot is given as Sub Lt. Gardner, RNVR. Code letters LE-T have indeed been associated with Gardner, although his own personal emblem (Nelson's flag message) is not present here. Gardner claimed a He 111 destroyed on July 10th but, according to Brian Cull, he was not flying V7203 on this occasion.

 

Today I gave a closer look at the wing tip structure. Comparing it with another Hurricane, such as this, it appears to me that V7203 has a fabric wing.

This would agree with information provided by Mason, that I had reported previously in one of my mails. I repeat it here:

• first batch of 600 (the L-serials): fabric-covered wing fitted on almost all aircraft but some were later modified with metal stressed-skin wings at Maintenance Units;
• second batch of 300 (the N-serials): first 80 aircraft completed with fabric-covered wings (most later modified with metal stressed-skin wings); remainder completed with metal wings from outset;
• third batch of 500 (P-serials): majority with metal wings from new;
• fourth batch of 500 (V-serials): first 25 fitted with fabric wings, but most re-fitted with metal wings at M.U.s.

but so far I'd rather agree with the opinion that Hurricanes delivered in July 1940 were highly unlikely to have fabric wings. Now I tend to believe Mason.

 

The first 25 Hurricanes in the fourth batch manufactured by Hawker are V7200-V7209 V7221-V7235. First delivery from this batch was on 2 July 1940 (Mason) and V7203 would be the fourth.

This Hurricane presents an interesting and, I believe, quite unusual combination:

• fabric wing
• late windscreen with internal armour
• late model VHF radio (no aerial running from the antenna to the rudder tip and no support on the rudder tip)
• IFF aerial from fuselage to tailplanes
• Rotol propeller with rounded Spitfire-type spinner

 

What do you think?

 

Claudio

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by ClaudioN
Fix second picture link

[johnd]

21 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

What do you think?

Looks fabric to me.

 

John.

 

[Mr T]

It does look like a fabric covered wing. I suppose it is possible that given the losses in France there would be a lot of pressure to accelerate production rates 

and if Hawker had components spare they might have used them on the basis that a fabric wing Hurricane is better than no Hurricane at all. 

[stevehnz]

So, when I use up my Alicat metal wing conversion I can do a wing swop with an Arma Hobby kit to give a later fuselage with a fabric wing as LE-T. Where do I get the decals from?  

Steve.

[GrzeM]

Could it be possible they produced a new Hurricane using spare, used wings? I suppose that factories had surplus fabric wings previously removed from those planes which had the fabric wings replaced with the metal ones!

Quite complex but fascinating problem...

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

So, when I use up my Alicat metal wing conversion I can do a wing swop with an Arma Hobby kit to give a later fuselage with a fabric wing as LE-T. Where do I get the decals from?  

Steve.

Xtradecal X72225 has everything but the serial.

[Graham Boak]

The changeover took place at MUs rather than the factory, but presumably there was an order for spare wings in the system anyway.

[Jure Miljevic]

Very interesting photo, ClaudioN. Given the fabric wings I wonder what the colour of lower surfaces would be: perhaps silver dope, half black, half white or some other variation on pre-war and early war theme? Nice to know there are decals available, Seahawk. Serial can be easily printed at home. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

As a production item they will have been Sky at this time.  If not (for whatever reason) they will have been repainted at the MU before issue.

[ClaudioN]

58 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

Could it be possible they produced a new Hurricane using spare, used wings? I suppose that factories had surplus fabric wings previously removed from those planes which had the fabric wings replaced with the metal ones!

Quite complex but fascinating problem...

Seemingly, it worked the other way round. According to Mason, the Air Ministry were much concerned with production flow and insisted on having (at least some) Hurricanes produced to the original specification. Meanwhile, Hawkers were instructed to produce metal wings, first as replacements for damaged aircraft returning to the factory, then to build up stocks at Maintenence Units. Even after production switched to the metal wing standard,   quoting from Mason: "the Air Ministry inexplicably insisted that small batches of aircraft still be produced with fabric wings -- only to have metal wings fitted as they reached the Maintenance Units." The reported 25 fabric winged aircraft from the fourth Hawker production batch must have been the very last.

 

V7203 was delivered new in July 1940, I see no reason why it might be finished in other that the standard Fighter Command camouflage of the time, Dark Green, Dark Earth, Sky with Black spinner (Graham Boak wrote this while I was replying - thank you).

Still, I agree it is a quite fascinating example.

 

Claudio

Edited January 21, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Troy Smith]

On 21/01/2019 at 11:39, Jure Miljevic said:

Given the fabric wings I wonder what the colour of lower surfaces would be: perhaps silver dope, half black, half white or some other variation on pre-war and early war theme?

Give the production date, and the underwing roundel, Sky.

 

and pic under discussion

 

[Mr T]

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Give the production date, and the underwing roundel, Sky.

 

and pic under discussion

 

So presumably  photographed after August, but before the end of November. Did it ever get a metal wing I wonder? It is possible that the Air Ministry was expecting the tempo of air operations to continue at a higher level than was actually the case and so by the time they were produced, more aircraft were on hand and time and resources were available to change the wings in most cases. How effective was the salvage and repair organisation by this stage of the war? 

[Graham Boak]

The salvage and repair organisation was very effective during the battle itself, but was perhaps much less so when the order for that batch of Hurricanes was made.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Graham Boak

[stevehnz]

9 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Xtradecal X72225 has everything but the serial.

Thanks for that Nick, I had a feeling I'd seen this aircrafts markings somewhere before. A serial won't be harder to do from a generic sheet than any other flaming serial is to do from a generic sheet.

Steve.

[Troy Smith]

29 minutes ago, Mr T said:

Did it ever get a metal wing I wonder?

the subject of rewinging fabruic winged planes has come up on occasion.

There is really not much data,  my speculation/theory is there wasn't a specific program to rewinging Hurricanes, unlike replacing props.  If the wing was damaged, yes, but if sound it was kept.

 

Now two Hurricane don't make a summer , but both L1592, now in the Science Museum, and L1926 both survived the BoB and ended up in Training Command  and retained their fabric wings.   There were plenty of Hurricane bits about,  and you don't see watts props being retained..  

Possibly this information is held on individual aircraft records, or could be made a guess at from damage reports.  

 

And, according to an anecdote in Hurricane at War 2,  they were more pleasant to fly.     IIRC the metal wing was brought in because of concerns about fabric  "balloning" and possibly stripping?   @Graham Boak  maybe able too add to this.

 

 

And, i should relink this thread

 

Thanks to @ClaudioN for the interesting observation.

 

I'll add in @tango98   as if he see this Dave maybe able to add something...

 

cheers

T

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Graham, ClaudioN and Troy, thank you for your explanation. I would not even ask such a question but I assumed the wing replacement had been of a more improvised nature and took place at MU or even at squadron level. Cheers

Jure

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, Mr T said:

It is possible that the Air Ministry was expecting the tempo of air operations to continue at a higher level than was actually the case and so by the time they were produced, more aircraft were on hand and time and resources were available to change the wings in most cases.

V7203 was part of the very last small batch of fabric-winged aircraft. The aircraft was delivered in the first days of July, presumably to a Maintenance Unit. As Hurricane production at the time was 6-8 aircraft per day, I'd assume a MU would just keep it in storage doing nothing about it, unless there was an urgent need. With the Battle of Britain about to begin, it is possible that replacement aircraft were indeed urgently needed by 242 Sqn. after its evacuation from France on June 18th. In that case V7203 may have progressed directly to the squadron.

 

Just a guess, of course

 

Claudio

 

[tonyot]

Hiya Claudio,

                    I have long puzzled over this photo myself,........ by the V serial range they were metal wings but the wing on this one certainly looks fabric with the ribbing and the landing light does look to be further inboard than the metal wing. The wing appears to be freshly painted compared to the rest of the aircraft and my own feeling is that a set of spare wings held on the unit have been fitted to the aircraft following damage. Either that, or it has been repaired by an MU or Civilian Repair Depot as such.

 

Cheers

           Tony 

Edited January 21, 2019 by tonyot

[ClaudioN]

33 minutes ago, tonyot said:

I have long puzzled over this photo myself,........ by the V serial range they were metal wings but the wing on this one certainly looks fabric with the ribbing and the landing light does look to be further inboard than the metal wing. The wing appears to be freshly painted compared to the rest of the aircraft and my own feeling is that a set of spare wings held on the unit have been fitted to the aircraft following damage. Either that, or it has been repaired by an MU or Civilian Repair Depot as such.

Hello Tony,

     this surely sounds very reasonable. The different guess I suggested is based on personal extrapolation of information provided by Mason, that may be accurate or not. If we trust him in this case:

• V7200-V7209 and V7221-V7235 were built and delivered by Hawker with fabric-covered wings
• Hawker was producing additional sets of metal-skinned wings and these were stored for future replacement or repair of damaged aircraft

If replacement metal wings were available, maybe fabric wings would no longer be used for repair at an MU, perhaps not even at a CRD? To me, the whole aircraft appears rather nice and clean in the picture, not only the wing undersurfaces. This is why I like to think that V7203, as pictured, looks like it has rolled out of the production line shortly before and appears exactly as it was built.

I'm afraid we may never know for certain, but that's part of the fun...

 

Very nice 73 Sqn. Hurricane, by the way! ...what's next?

 

Claudio

Edited January 21, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Graham Boak]

Just a bit of detail: the MU was not just a parking lot even for new aircraft.  The factory would not be responsible for specific military items such as the armament, presumably including gunsight, radio and IFF.  Reasons for this would include safety, security, simplification of supply routes, and tighter control of such sensitive bits of kit.

[tonyot]

14 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Hello Tony,

     this surely sounds very reasonable. The different guess I suggested is based on personal extrapolation of information provided by Mason, that may be accurate or not. If we trust him in this case:

• V7200-V7209 and V7221-V7235 were built and delivered by Hawker with fabric-covered wings
• Hawker was producing additional sets of metal-skinned wings and these were stored for future replacement or repair of damaged aircraft

If replacement metal wings were available, maybe fabric wings would no longer be used for repair at an MU, perhaps not even at a CRD? To me, the whole aircraft appears rather nice and clean in the picture, not only the wing undersurfaces. This is why I like to think that V7203, as pictured, looks like it has rolled out of the production line shortly before and appears exactly as it was built.

I'm afraid we may never know for certain, but that's part of the fun...

 

Very nice 73 Sqn. Hurricane, by the way! ...what's next?

 

Claudio

Cheers mate,....... Oh I`ve got a few things on the go plus a few more Arma Hurricane`s,......... the Airfix Dakota should be the next one finished,

 

All the best mate

                          Tony

[ClaudioN]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:53 PM, Troy Smith said:

the subject of rewinging fabruic winged planes has come up on occasion.

There is really not much data,  my speculation/theory is there wasn't a specific program to rewinging Hurricanes, unlike replacing props.  If the wing was damaged, yes, but if sound it was kept.

 

Now two Hurricane don't make a summer , but both L1592, now in the Science Museum, and L1926 both survived the BoB and ended up in Training Command  and retained their fabric wings.   There were plenty of Hurricane bits about,  and you don't see watts props being retained..  

Possibly this information is held on individual aircraft records, or could be made a guess at from damage reports.  

 

And, according to an anecdote in Hurricane at War 2,  they were more pleasant to fly.     IIRC the metal wing was brought in because of concerns about fabric  "balloning" and possibly stripping?   @Graham Boak  maybe able too add to this.

 

 

And, i should relink this thread

 

Thanks to @ClaudioN for the interesting observation.

 

I'll add in @tango98   as if he see this Dave maybe able to add something...

 

cheers

T

 

I happened to have a look into a source I had forgotten about so far.

"British Military Aircraft Serials" by Bruce Robertson has a detailed list of fabric-winged Hurricanes. P3886 is in a run of 8 with fabric-covered wings...!

According to what Robertson reported, there were 50 fabric-winged Hurricanes interspersed in a batch of 500.

One wonders why at all... anyway, that was it. Maybe.

 

Claudio

 

[Lican]

17 Squadron, july 1940

 

85 Squadron, july 1940

 

 

[Troy Smith]

WOW!

where did these come from (apart from being posted on scalemodel ru) and are there any more, as in BoB Hurricane photos I have not seen before! 

If there is a thread on scalemeodel.ru, please link

thanks

T

[Lican]

Good day. This is my second hobby, collecting photos of the Battle of Britain in good resolution and editing them. There are photos, but I don’t have time yet to create a website or blog for their publication in good resolution and for general use.