Troy Smith Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Quote ANA623 chip in The Official Monogram US Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol 2 1940-1949 by John M Elliot Maj. USMC (Ret). Has all the colors described above apart from the FS 595, as actual paint chips. plus all the uses and regulations, OOP and usually expensive used, Amazon has one for £30.61 and post, note how much the next copies are... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0914144324/?colid=TPT3EDGAPG63&coliid=I3QN0284CZ2L3S&ref_=lv_ov_lig_uan_ol which is as good as price as you are likely to find.... (mine was 37.50.. and I thought that was good.) Just a heads up for anyone on here who wants to delve deeper into the subject... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Just read an article(I keep forgetting to bookmark these little items as I always feel it will never come up later) that said WW2 paint manufacturers were allowed to deviate +/- 10% from the official colour. I haven't found anything in my books or on the web to back this up however. Has @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies ever heard of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Define 10% deviation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 No idea, assume it means the colours didn't have to be bang on to be accepted. As I said I didn't bookmark it. I just posts 'em and let the experts go nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Sure, but putting a number on it assumes some kind of scale, and I don't understand how that would work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Yes, what Graham said. I've heard the exact same thing recently somewhere else but that too was second hand and I asked the exact same question. I would expect there probably was some kind of tolerance but I'd be surprised if anyone put a number on it because getting numbers in those days required a series of laboratory measurements and a relatively extended set of hand calculations. That then still leaves the fundamental question of "10% of what?". Colours have several attributes which can be quantified. 10% on some makes little difference whilst 10% on others is quite a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 On 1/21/2019 at 9:26 PM, Troy Smith said: Hi Pat No, Maybe you missed the quote from @Dana Bell which goes with the diagram I merely stand on the shoulder of giants on this one, ( I got one of Dana's books when I was 16, which was erm, over 35 years ago, and it was one of the first real reference books I got and I learnt an awful lot from it, and it taught me the value of a well selected image) but the more often this information gets flagged up, the more the correct information is used, creating a positive feedback. the old LEMB site had a motto "I learn, you learn, we all learn" This reminded me, that previously I'd found online some decent shots, this is a good one not super clear, but if you look closely you can see the glossy paint on the main part of the wing and the matter finish of the leading edge. looking at the site I linked this from https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hellcat/F6F-3.html note the star reflection on the wing, and the lack of shine on the leading edge HTH T I can never tell the difference between the GSB and the non specular SB in photos (I put it down to being a Celtic supporter and therefore having a natural aversion to any form of blue). In the top picture I really can't see any difference other than the white, the intermediate blue and the Sea blue (and the Insignia blue of the markings). In the second picture I can see the gloss on the wing and can see lots of fading on the engine cowl and an area on the fuselage above the star and bar that looks either faded or a slightly different colour (insignia Blue?). Did the gloss SB (on wartime aircraft like above) lose it's gloss as it faded? Jamie must be sick of trying to explain this colour scheme to me! Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Yes, GSB did lose some of its gloss but non-specular Sea Blue wasn't quite the same hue as GSB so there would still appear to be some difference remaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Duncan B said: I can never tell the difference between the GSB and the non specular SB in photos (I put it down to being a Celtic supporter and therefore having a natural aversion to any form of blue). In the top picture I really can't see any difference other than the white, the intermediate blue and the Sea blue (and the Insignia blue of the markings). In the second picture I can see the gloss on the wing and can see lots of fading on the engine cowl and an area on the fuselage above the star and bar that looks either faded or a slightly different colour (insignia Blue?). Did the gloss SB (on wartime aircraft like above) lose it's gloss as it faded? Jamie must be sick of trying to explain this colour scheme to me! Duncan B OK, the 'tri' color scheme, does not have Gloss Sea Blue, ANA623. This is the replacement, and is another color Quote The scheme is actually four colors - white, Intermediate Blue, ANA606 semi gloss Sea Blue (atop the wings and horizontal tail), and ANA607 Non-Specular Sea Blue (atop the fuselage and on leading edges of the wings and stabs). The last two colors differ in more than the gloss factor - non-spec is distinctly grayer and lighter than the semi-gloss. I generally refer to the scheme as 4-color to clarify the differences. There was a later version where all of the paints were glossy - it wasn't seen often, but it certainly was a three-color scheme. Cheers, Dana I have added emphasis and the ANA codes to the quote I have not seen a wartime color pic which would show the difference between ANA606 and ANA607, they are close, the difference @Dana Bellrefers to is if you have have unfaded colors side by side, as in the color chips in book mentioned. and the different reflectivity is also a factor.in wartime photos. The photos were posted as they showed the difference in sheen, which is pretty much what will be visible in wartime shot if you are lucky. HTH 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat d Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) Couple of colour shots showing the semi-gloss and non-specular dark sea blue on fairly new machines. As other posters have pointed out the colours are actually different in both colour and sheen. FWIW the Sovereign Colorcoats paint look like there were cut off the chips in the Monogram book. Splendid matches. I used them for my 1/48 F6F (cowl is still in gloss coat 😉 ) Edited July 12, 2019 by pat d 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 17 hours ago, pat d said: Couple of colour shots showing the semi-gloss and non-specular dark sea blue on fairly new machines. the Helldiver shot is excellent, and shows the difference beautifully, thanks! @Duncan B, have a look at the helldiver above, to see the difference between ANA606 and ANA607. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Troy Smith said: the Helldiver shot is excellent, and shows the difference beautifully, thanks! @Duncan B, have a look at the helldiver above, to see the difference between ANA606 and ANA607. Yes, I can see it on the Helldiver. Thanks to Pat for finding a photo that actually shows the difference that I had previously failed to see in any others and to Troy for clarifying the above. I still don't see it on the Hellcat though due to the leading edge being in shadow but it does show just how glossy the ANA606 was. Nice looking Hellcat build @pat d and I can add my positive thoughts on the Colourcoats US Navy colours as they are what rekindled my interest in US Navy subjects having tried some out and instantly been impressed by them on my Hellcat build last year. Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroubos Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) I just saw I never posted the final result. And as part of my USN collection. Edited October 6, 2019 by sroubos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 As this came up in our RAF thead will continue the post here. I'm not sure pre 1947 ana623 and FS15042 are that different, see these two corsairs Which as I said I like Vallejo 898 (Tigercat)for if it wasn't so matt unlike Xtracrylic(Corsair) which is clearly too dark and purple to my eyes. The hurricane outer wing is Vallejo 36099 and inner is AK Interactive 35044 both with a coat of gloss over them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 It's very unlikely to find two identical shades in any two random colour photos from the period, even when they do show the same paint, so don't rely upon those. To be honest, they don't look the same to me anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 Very true, on that note been looking at trying mission models version of the post war shade and found a build painted with it this evening, thoughts? https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/77928-tamiya-132-f4u-1d-vbf-84-39-update/page/3/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 It looks good, but my monitor isn’t calibrated so would hate to bet on the accuracy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 7 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said: see these two corsairs the top Corsair is an example of the fading of ANA 623, as it's taken in 1946 in the Mediterranean. this is fresh ANA 623 GSB, oddly there are not many color photos of wartime GSB. This image is in Dana Bell's Corsair monograph, and shows the complex nature of GSB. 7 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said: Xtracrylic(Corsair) which is clearly too dark and purple to my eyes. I have Xtracrylix GSB , which IIRC was the post 1947 version, as in greenish, mine is. (would need to re check) The photo above is under artificial light, and has nothing to compare it too so it's very hard to say more without some external common reference. The whole thing has been somewhat of a surprise, and is a PITA, as with lack of acrylic matches for basic RAF colours, and down the rabbit hole of paint mixing...... my problem I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) Fair point about the lighting, perhaps if we get a sunny day this week I’ll try and get a pic with something that can be a reference perhaps the blue plastic of a revell aqua pot? As for the greenish hue point the Vallejo definitely has that as can see when it’s thin, can’t say for the Xtracrylix as my pot ran out last year but it does ***look*** more purple than colour images of actual Korean War aircraft Edited February 27, 2023 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Got some sun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Regardless of actual color matches, with the daylight lighting, at least to me the Tigercat represents a well used GSB WWII era finish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 (edited) That’s what though my so will use the Vallejo for pre47 GSB blue though will try out Aks equalivant going forward, also ordered the mission model to use as post 47 GSB on my salty GB Corsair, I know troy says his pot of Xtracrylix has a green hue but to me it still looks too dark and purple in sunlight as per the photo Edited February 27, 2023 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 10 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said: I know troy says his pot of Xtracrylix has a green hue but to me it still looks too dark and purple in sunlight as per the photo I've not dug mine out, it was from memory. That assumes they are batch consistent as well..... I've not been happy with Xtracrylix, for too many of their colours are blinkin' awful matches....possibly matched to BS381 without checking... co-incidenatlly I've been scrubbing their "Dark Green" and "Dark Earth" off my long stalled Arma Hurricane, with IPA, at least it cleaned off fairly easily, long stalled as this is when I went down the rabbit hole of finding their colours were way off compared to the RAF museum MAP chips. 16 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said: Aks equalivant which one is that? I have this set which is blinkin' awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: I've not dug mine out, it was from memory. That assumes they are batch consistent as well..... I've not been happy with Xtracrylix, for too many of their colours are blinkin' awful matches....possibly matched to BS381 without checking... co-incidenatlly I've been scrubbing their "Dark Green" and "Dark Earth" off my long stalled Arma Hurricane, with IPA, at least it cleaned off fairly easily, long stalled as this is when I went down the rabbit hole of finding their colours were way off compared to the RAF museum MAP chips. which one is that? I have this set which is blinkin' awful. Their newish 3G range, paints superior to Vallejo model colour though their RAF colours are iffy to awful matches their general range seems to be very similar spectrum to vallejos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) Mission models has arrived, no idea why they claim it as gloss when its matt and its not blue enough for post war fs15042 in the pcitures but is very close to my xtracrylix painted corsair, however tbh I'm happy enough to use it as non spec sea blue with my Insignia blue if I were to do a tri colour build, still need to sort out a post war one, though going back to Troys comment re xtracrrlyix seen some builds painted with it that look different to my corsair, perhaps worth trying it again, got to order their gloss black for my blackbird build edit: just had my judgement knocked a bit, RAF dark sea grey in all the chips doesn't have much of blue hint if any where as a photo of this tornado painted all over DSG it looks blue, I not taking some effect into account I aren't https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Panavia_Tornado_GR1%2C_UK_-_Air_Force_AN1951362.jpg I hate paint Edited March 1, 2023 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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