British Olive Drab No15

[Yeoman1942]

Hi All

 

I am hopeful that  the Britmodeller Armour community can help me out.

 

I am getting to the end of building my Bronco A13 Cruiser, and have hit a bit of a colour problem. I am looking for the mix for British Olive Drab as both the clouds suggested  Gunze H304 and XF 62 look wrong. I had a mix left over from the Vulcan Light Tank MKVIB that I have just finished that I liked, but like a numpty I threw out the instructions with the mix.

 

Can anyone help with the correct colours for a BEF tank ? I'd also like the mixes from the Vulcan kit as the combination looks good and i would like to use it again. I have got a bit of a thing going on for early war British tanks and suspect I might be using quite a bit of this in the future

 

Many thanks

 

Yeoman 

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Yeoman1942 said:

Can anyone help with the correct colours for a BEF tank ?

a BEF tank won't be SCC 15 Olive Drab, that's a 1944 colour.

 

The chap for this is @Mike Starmer  

http://www.mafva.net/other pages/Starmer camo.htm

Quote

1939-41 – Bold horizontal/ diagonal patterns of two greens following M.T.P. 20 of June 1939.  The most usual colours were a basic of Khaki Green No. 3 and Dark Green No.4.  Plain G3 was an occasional alternative.  Infantry tanks Matilda I & II appear quite dark in tone, possibly Khaki Green No. 3 and Deep Bronze Green No. 24 in some cases.

 

January 1941.

A variation of colour took place with A.C.I. 1559.  Wood and metal bodywork was to be painted Khaki Green No. 3 and Nobel’s Dark Tarmac No. 4 with canvas hoods and tilts in S.C.C. 7 and S.C.C 1A to the same pattern as M.T.P. 20 thus resulting in a green/ black-grey and green/ brown scheme.

 

 

Quote

Tamiya mix Nobels Khaki Green No.3/ G3 & Dark Green

Just what the new Bronco kit owners need. Khaki Green 3 was the new basic colour from mid-1939 till phased out in 1941. But also may be used as an alternative colour in lieu of Slate 34 in the Caunter scheme.

Mix: - 3 pts XF62 + 2 pts XF59.

The resulting colour is slightly less rich than a sample matched to an original motorcycle part and slightly less brown than on a steel helmet in original colour, so a good average.

Dark Green G4: - mix 3 x XF61 + 2 pts XF58. No original colour found; yet.

This was the colour specified in MTP 20 for use in scheme 1 for 'average European conditions'. This colour is matched to the colour that I use over Khaki Green 3 and which is based on the use of complimenary hues and low contrast values seen on numerous contemporary photographs and what few colour photographs exist for 1940 period vehicles.

**Vallejo mix: SCC15 British Olive WWII**(by Alan Brown)

Mix equal parts of 70888 Olive Grey [92] + 70924 Russian Uniform WWII [094] and VIOLA! there you have it.

He has done matches in Humbrol and Tamiya,  and I have seen them for Vallejo

 

https://alliedarmour1940.wordpress.com/vallejo-paint-mixes-for-british-armour/

 

HTH

[Kingsman]

If you're looking for SCC15, why not use one of the pre-mixed colour-matched SCC15s?  I used the Hataka version on my Tortoise and I think it looks OK.  The problem with most Tamiya and Gunze colours is that they are just generic colours not matched to anything in particular. I hate mixing colours because of the lack of repeatability: we are not as precise as we like to think we are, unless you use graduated syringes and mix in big batches.

 

But as Troy said above while I was still typing (slowly!), no A13 would ever have been seen in SCC15.  A13 production ceased about 4 years before SCC15 was introduced and none were still in service when it was introduced in time for D Day.

 

As noted in the Mike Starmer quotes from Troy above, the BEF period and up to mid-'42 means Dark Green G4 over Khaki Green G3 - although plain KG3 is not impossible,   KG3 is noticeably brownish, "khaki" being the clue word.  Pre-war A13s were gloss Deep Bronze Green, and this may be the colour you're thinking of.  All those that served in France with BEF were repainted, although some left behind in the UK might - and I stress might - have lingered longer in the old scheme.

 

I recently did a Bedford OXA in Greens G3/G4.  For that I settled on the Vallejo Model Air Khaki Green G3 after trying colour spots of several alleged G3s.  To my eye it has just about the right brown tinge.  For the G4, again after experimenting, I used Hataka's Dark Green G4.  Came out like this.

[Yeoman1942]

Thanks to both of you Troy and Das Abteilung. This community is really brilliant, I am always bowled over by how willing people are to share their knowledge. Nice looking Bedford 

 

I thought the colour guides in the Bronco instructions looked a bit off. They have a weird light green specified that looks more likely to draw your eye rather than camouflage a tank. Given how much effort they put into the kit I can't believe they could get it so wrong.

 

The mixed for Khaki Green and Dark Green look like what I remember from the Vulcan kit and match the Tamiya I bought for that kit. I'll mix up a new batch and see what damage I can do once I get the tracks together, only 360 parts to go😨

 

Thanks once again for the super speedy help

 

Yeoman

[Troy Smith]

I think this Churchill is Khaki Green G.3

 

 

 

https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/31/703/large_000000.jpg

 

@Das Abteilung

Any thoughts on the track colours, there are a few more on the IWM site of this series and all have shiny silver tracks?

 

 

[Plasto]

The tracks could be a product of what they are being run on. If the ground is clay or chalk then that will polish steel very readily... look at the points on earthmover buckets to see how polished they become....

[Yeoman1942]

Top pics Troy. Really helpful

 

Those tracks look to be breaking the "shine" rule of cam and concealment. It was much easier to cam up our Fuchs. A quick run through a puddle and you were done 

 

 

[Kingsman]

Yes, the MkI and II Churchills were KG3.  The change to SCC2 came during MkIII production.  Those photos are a bit green-tinged, probably from the film stock.  The uniforms should be browner and the skin tones are a bit Zombie.  So that means the tank colour is a bit too green too.

 

The lighter green you refer to sounds like the little-used Light Green G5. 

 

Bovington has several vehicles including their A13 in BEF-period finishes.  However, the KG3 on all of them is a bit too green: Museum repaints, especially older ones, need to be treated with a pinch of suspicion about absolute colour accuracy. Their restored Matilda II is now in overall KG3, reputed to be close match.  Many photos can be found on line. 

 

However, be aware that the colour values in photos can be affected by the light, the camera, the lens, the format the picture is saved in and the colour setup of the monitor on which images are displayed.  A picture you take on any digital camera and transfer to your PC, cloud or wherever and then look at on a monitor will be at least slightly different to the real-life image your eyes saw at the time.  Scanned prints of wet film negatives introduce scanning variation too, not to mention whether they were correctly exposed when taken and when printed.  And period colour film could introduce green or blue colour shifts, like the overly-green photos above.  So assessing truly accurate colours from photographs is nowhere near as accurate and definitive as you might think it is.  Which is why restorers are now very keen to examine old paint layers and find original-paint areas from which chips can be extracted for colour scanning - rather than the old days of just stripping it off.  So much paint history on museum subjects has been lost.

 

Tracks is a whole other story, about which there has been much argument.  Instigated mostly by me because I'm fed up with seeing incorrect silver and graphite tracks on models.  Put simply, no British tank tracks of WW2 were ever made of silvery metal.  Period.  Same goes for most everyone else too.  They look silvery in pictures because the polished sheen catches the light, but that doesn't make them silver.  All British tank tracks were made of manganese steel, which has a goldy-brown colour that no paint manufacturer makes and which is hard to replicate.  It's also hard to capture on camera.  They didn't rust to orangey shades either as the manganese is a natural rust inhibitor.  The oxide was a sort of milky coffee grey-brown, but could be darker brown.  Yes, the tracks would pick up mud and grass etc. The wearing points on the spuds, the guide teeth and the inside faces along the line of the wheels would be polished metal after a few miles use. Assuming that the tracks are mostly covered in the scenery, it's only the wear points you neeed to worry about. 

 

At the moment I'm using a Vandyke Brown Metallic oil pastel, which to my eye gives a more realistic effect.  It can be buffed a bit once dry and once really dry the thinnest lick of satin varnish might be applied for sheen.  The best picture I can find of it in use is this set of Renault FT tracks.

 

 

I found a photo of my own of the Bovington A13.  Both greens are probably a bit too dark.  You can see the track metal colour better on the Churchill.

 

[PDH]

7 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

At the moment I'm using a Vandyke Brown Metallic oil pastel, which to my eye gives a more realistic effect.  It can be buffed a bit once dry and once really dry the thinnest lick of satin varnish might be applied for sheen.  The best picture I can find of it in use is this set of Renault FT tracks

 

 

I've been looking around for a more realistic British track weathering method for a while. When using metal tracks I find certain blackening products can produce a realistic finish but plastic tracks are more of a problem.

 

I would like to try the Vandyke Brown. Is there any particular brand/shade of pastel you would recommend? A search shows some manufacturers produce different hues of Vandyke Brown which adds a little confusion!!

Many thanks

 

P

[Kingsman]

Once again, blackening white metal tracks produces an unrealistic base metal colour.  Some tracks may have been painted black when new and spare links were routinely painted black, but with a satin or even gloss sheen rather than the matt finish that blackening produces.  But the black does provide a depth basis for weathering,  However, you can't just sand off the blackening on the wear points as this will leave an incorrect and unrealistic silvery finish which will tarnish to a darker colour over time.

 

So I do wonder why white metal tracks even exist, other than the relative simplicity of their manufacture and the oft-quoted natural sag weight.  I did some simple investigating to see if the alloy could be tinted, but it seems not.

 

Now, resin and plastic tracks - even vinyl ones - could very easily be moulded and cast in a more realistic base colour than those we see: generally black, red-brown and grey-green shades.  Dragon's DS tracks in a sandy colour were completely daft.

 

As for the oil pastel, mine came in a set of metallic pastels I found in an arty shop.  I thought the other colours might come in useful for other things.  I'm sure a "proper" art shop can get them individually if they don't have them.  Equally I'm sure you can get them online.  I was looking around for track colour ideas and that really needed the Mk1 eyeball on the real product.

 

There are metallic pencils available in several shades, but they're really too hard to be of much use on tracks: they take the paint off, and the "lead" doesn't really work powdered. They can, however, be very useful for drawing on scratches and scrapes on bodywork, etc.  Not all of us have that level of brush skill.

 

There are several shades and brands of acrylic metallic artists' paints, but they aren't formulated for use on non-absorbent surfaces and tend to blob - or wear off with a stern stare if you do get them on.

 

This is MiG's metal track finishing guide, using his own products of course.  But he ends up by sanding off the paint to leave the bare white metal.  So even the Illustrious Miguel gets it wrong too.  Russian tracks were then and are now made of manganese steel and the native metal colour is most definitely not silvery.  In fact it is generally a little browner than western versions: a different alloy recipe.

http://www.migjimenez.com/img/cms/PDF/StepbyStep_Finishing-Tracks_ENG.pdf?utm_source=AMMO+News&utm_campaign=5363d1b742-NEWSLETTER_WEB_05_02_20162_5_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b508638084-5363d1b742-270253729

 

We've finally cottoned-on to the fact that the base colour of armour plate is a metallic chocolatey brown and that wear areas, scratches etc will therefore not be silvery or graphitey.  But when will we finally cotton-on about tracks?  Paint manufacturers especially: none I've contacted are interested.

 

I believe the basic problem stems from the difference between shine and colour.  All polished metal will shine, and in monochrome photos will look silvery.  But not everything shiny is silver.  If tracks were made of brass or bronze would we use silver or graphite to represent polished areas?  Of course not.  So why do it with manganese steel?  In colour photos the same light-catching problem applies.  You need to get the light angle right to capture the colour rather than the shine.

 

Of course many people don't care, and apologies to you if you don't.  But those who say things along the lines of "I know it's inaccurate or unrealistic but I like it" or "model it your own way regardless of what people think" are kinda missing the point.  This isn't a fine art genre, it's an exercise in representing reality in miniature.  Hobby horse stabled.......

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Tracks is a whole other story, about which there has been much argument.  Instigated mostly by me because I'm fed up with seeing incorrect silver and graphite tracks on models.  Put simply, no British tank tracks of WW2 were ever made of silvery metal.  Period.  Same goes for most everyone else too.  They look silvery in pictures because the polished sheen catches the light, but that doesn't make them silver.  All British tank tracks were made of manganese steel, which has a goldy-brown colour that no paint manufacturer makes and which is hard to replicate. 

the reason I posted the Churchill photos as having read your posts on track colour.

 

I can see overall you are correct on track colour, but these Churchills,  there are several colour shots, and these really do look like silvery,  especially in the shots above, and in the bits not catching the light,  

 

 

I'm wondering if this was a test type of track?  these are the only photos I have seen that DO look like this,   which is why I ask.  

 

Just for contrast, here is a Churchill in SCC2 brown with disruptive Tarmac uppers

 

cheers

T

[Kingsman]

Both of those Churchill photos are also overly green again.  The SCC2 looks more like KG3 when it was in fact very brown.  No idea what colour the guy's helmet is.  Take a bit of the green out and it could possibly be the afore-mentioned Light Green 5.

 

I can only agree that the Churchill tracks certainly look very silvery - and in that statement we have the nub of the problem.  But it is a mystery.  Although they are clearly blue-sky sunny-day photos so I'm perhaps not surprised they're glinting everywhere.  Tactically poor, as noted above.

 

From the metallurgy perspective, manganese became added to tank track alloys in the 1930s once its hard-wearing properties were appreciated.  It had been used in ballistic helmets, among other things, since at least 1915.  Tank track life was increased 10-fold from a few hundred miles to several thousand.  Thus everyone did it.  Think how many thousands of tons of replacement tracks would have been needed by the Panzerwaffe in 1939-43 without it.  Adding manganese changes the colour to the goldy-brown, the shade of course depending on the exact alloy ratios.  That much is beyond any dispute or argument.

 

However, Manganese wasn't the easiest mineral to come by and Germany ended up using much less of it in their tracks as the war progressed.  Transport tracks for Tigers might conceivably have been mild steel all along as they weren't expected to see much use.  But with short tank life expectancy it wasn't too much of an issue: far more likely to be knocked out before worn out.  It is perhaps surprising that Russia, with its view of tanks as being disposable, did use relatively high manganese tracks.

 

Now, I find myself wondering if the UK ended up making mild steel tracks for training tanks and reserving the manganese ones for operations, especially perhaps with the heavy links on the Churchill.  I have no evidence for this at all and I've never heard of it before: it's just a thought.  It would certainly explain the brighter colour.  If you look at the top photo of the plain green tank in the post above you can see that the tracks are very worn toward the inside edge.  See how the slot disappears.  That's a lot of track miles on hard surfaces if they're manganese: so are they mild?.  Compare with the AVRE tracks further up, which are definitely manganese.  Of course we don't know the wear life each has had.

 

But I can see why someone would use a photo like that to justify silver tracks.  I guess the debate will continue.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Das Abteilung
correction

[John]

I mixed G3 based on Mike Starmer's Humbrol formula for this Airfix Bedford MWD and got it as close as I could to the chip in his monograph:

 

 

It's obviously the bodyside and wheels, not the tilt or canvas doors.

 

I suspect, but can't prove, that Dark Green and Light Green may have been the same colours as used by the RAF, given the involvement of the RAE in developing vehicle camouflage.

 

John

 

 

[patmaquette]

This is an interesting thread and very helpful for my future builds, so many thanks to you.

I wish I had asked the question about Dark Green No 4 before I painted my Bedford MWD.  I am way off the mark. Next time I won't hesitate to ask.

Pat

[Plasto]

The ‘silver’ on the Churchill tracks is just wear polishing the base material. 

 

If you look at this image.

 

 

 

 

There are 2 distinct colours on the track cleats.

 

The raised tread is ‘silver’ as it’s been polished by contact with the surface its running on. 

 

The recessed part of the cleat is the base colour of the forging / casting.

 

if you look at pictures of Churchill’s either in B+W or colour. That wear mechanism is apparent in the images.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The track on this ARVE

is just heavily oxidised and dirty but you can still see how the portion of the cleat in contact with the ground has the oxide layer polished. Continue to run it and you’d continue to wear and polish the base material.

 

 

So I’m not sure if on a model you highlight the wear on the tracks of a Churchill with ‘silver’ or expose the white metal of a cast track link that’s actually incorrect....

 

 

[Yeoman1942]

Thanks for all the tips, It's turned into a really interesting thread.

 

There is a great Youtube "Tank Chat" about painting Tigers. They go over the changes in Panzer colours and how they search for samples of the various colours. I never knew the Tigers were originally painted in a two tone cam scheme.

 

Das, your tracks look great and the metallurgy makes sense and the resulting oxidation  colours look much more realistic than rusty rust. 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Yeoman1942 said:

There is a great Youtube "Tank Chat" about painting Tigers.

a link would be  great, as finding stuff on youtube can be a bit hit and miss, or you could start a new thread.

had a search, this one?

 

 

Ages ago though @Mike Starmer  said this

 

On 22/09/2011 at 20:54, Mike Starmer said:

'The museum painted vehicles and artwork in books are not accurate, which is why they look so different.'

Quite so. Some years ago I was at Bovington watching their painter outside applying markings to their brown Churchill. The colour was brown but not SCC 2. I asked how they went about deciding the colour of this exhibit. The reply? Well we were told they were sort of dark brown so we went to B&Q and found something that we thought about right. There was no need to guess, they have a copy of BS.987C in their archive. But colour is not important to the staff there and no one it appears is interested enough to bother. They do however have copies of my books.

On the subject of mixes. One of the problems of using model paints is that they are all mixtures to start with. So when setting out to create a new mix one has to select a possible suitable base colour and then find something which will achieve the desired result keeping in mind that some colours may have a tint of a strong primary colour in them in small undetectable amounts that will throw off the resulting mix. Greys in particular are never neutrals they always have something else in them which messes up the resulting mix. Blue is a colour which needs careful use as the primary pigment can be iron oxide (Prussian Blue) which is green or Ultramarine which is yellow. What ever you add to them is going to be biased either way. Reds are purple or yellow based too.

 

2 hours ago, Yeoman1942 said:

Thanks for all the tips, It's turned into a really interesting thread.

 

Britmodeller, at it's best I like to sum up as answering questions you didn't know you needed to ask  

[Plasto]

Troy to be fair Mike Starmers comment you quote is 8 years old in terms of the forum and recounts an event some time prior to that....

 

IIRC Tiger 131 was repainted in 2012 which is 12 months after that comment was posted.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Plasto said:

Troy to be fair Mike Starmers comment you quote is 8 years old in terms of the forum and recounts an event some time prior to that....

 

IIRC Tiger 131 was repainted in 2012 which is 12 months after that comment was posted.

 

 

Thanks John

I was posting late on, and had to go to bed before watching the Tiger video, which was very interesting, and informative.   Good to see the care taken now.  

 

I really enjoy finding out more about the details of camouflage and markings, and have memories of when British tanks were "dark green"  so  when I came across Mike Starmer's work I was very impressed,  and when question are asked here,  link or quote it.  

 

A big part of the site for me is sharing information,  as well as learning new aspects of of things that interest me, like @Das Abteilung   track colour hobby horse, which has been fascinating,  so looking up that Tiger video was well worth while. 

cheers

T

[Yeoman1942]

Hi Troy

 

Thats the one. Sorry my google fu wasn't up to a link last night. It's great to see how much effort the museums are now putting into getting the colours right. It makes them a much more valuable resource, even if it mens we have been painting kits the wrong colours for years.  Blue in a Caunter scheme anyone? 🤨. Being able to so modern spectrum analysis of paint samples is a great way to turn back time and get back to how colours were when produced and not 75+ years old.

 

The whole series of tank chats is really interesting, and the "top 5 Tanks" are a good laugh. 

 

I could not agree more with your definition of what this site is. 

[nheather]

Whilst on the subject, what do you think of Hataka paints.  Being a big fan of British Armour I pucked up the British AFV set as a Christmas present.

 

To date, I have only tried the SCC 15 - I found the paint nice enough but the colour seems a lot lighter than I was expecting - how accurate is it?

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, nheather said:

Whilst on the subject, what do you think of Hataka paints.  Being a big fan of British Armour I pucked up the British AFV set as a Christmas present.

 

To date, I have only tried the SCC 15 - I found the paint nice enough but the colour seems a lot lighter than I was expecting - how accurate is it?

 

You'd need one of Mike Starmer's book with paint chips.  I thought @Mike Starmer might have added to this thread, and he could tell you if he has the paint.  

 

The AK Colors Real Colors of WW II is printed, but they claim that with modern digital printing it's got an error of +/- 3% in colours reproduction.   

 

HTH

 

[Kingsman]

Despite the claims, many of AK's Real Colours are decidedly dodgy.  Their G3 is far too brown, for example, and their Desert Pink is almost salmon.  I believe that AK did not necessarily listen to everything their panel of experts told them.

 

The actual truth of the colours are the colour chips in an original copy of BS381C, which Mike S has worked long and hard to replicate with reference to surviving original paint on artefacts.  These are rarer than rocking horse poo.  I have held an original and have a scan of it but, for all the reasons I mentioned further up, that cannot be trusted.

 

SCC15 was a green, not a true olive.  US OD was made from mostly yellow and black pigments.  I've been looking to see what the base pigments for SCC15 were, without success.  It was probably a yellow/blue mix as we still couldn't get true green pigment in 1944.  As for the Hataka colour, it looks about right to me.  There are several SCC15 vehicles at Bovington, but how many are untouched original paint is another question.  The Mk1 Centurion is a strong contender.  Of course the colour from the pot and the final colour after finishing vary according to how you finish your models.  Compare these "before and after" photos of Hataka SCC15 on the rather substantial "what if" Tortoise: acres of paint.  Same camera and lens, same settings.  Different light, though - so not truly comparative.  But the right hand one matches well to the finished model by eye.

 

   

 

NB - not entirely trustworthy 

 BTW I took some track link photos at Bovington yesterday.  I'll post some once I've sorted them out.

 

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Despite the claims, many of AK's Real Colours are decidedly dodgy.  Their G3 is far too brown, for example, and their Desert Pink is almost salmon.  I believe that AK did not necessarily listen to everything their panel of experts told them.

 

My reference was not to the AK paints,  I saw Mike Starmer's critique of them on Minssing Lynx I think, 

but to the book,  Real Colors of WW II , which has a chapter by Mike Starmer on British paint, and contains a a sheet of printed chips,  but the claim is for the +/- 3% accuracy.   

Not ideal, but  if correct, good enough to get a reasonable match.

 

review here,  the chap is wittering, so best too mute it but it shows the book well

 

I got a copy when Creative Models has it their weekly specials.   

 

Regarding the Tiger Video,  in the UK you can buy a copy of a RAL fan deck for £15 from epaint

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Ral_colour_guides.asp

 

I asked them about it

Quote

The RAL K7 and K5 fans are manufactured by RAL themselves and are reasonably accurate. They are made from paint onto card. However, RAL does not publish the accuracy of these fan decks.

If you need more accurate sheets, you will need to contact RAL direct at Ral-farben.de and chose either the 840 HR or 841 GL colour cards. Whilst these can vary slightly the variance from the standard is given on each individual sheet.

 

I'm going to get one, as Israeli AF 50/60's colour are often matched to RAL colours, as well as a lot of the WW2 German armour.

HTH

[Bullbasket]

These topics come up frequently, and will probably continue to do so. Which paint producers colour is correct, is subjective. Peacetime paints are more likely to be standard, but when it comes to war time colours, I believe there is a bit of leeway. Apart from tanks coming straight off of the assembly line, there are going to be differences, not least because of hand mixed paints in base workshops. I've seen photos of Cromwells that you'd think were painted in two completely different colours. Wear and tear and the effects of the weather are going to be other factors. Providing a model paint isn't too far off of the correct shade, I will use it. After all, once the washes, filters and weathering pigments have gone on, it's not going to appear pristine.

 

John.