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Post War R.A.F. Roundels, possibly a stupid question ?


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Ok this might be a stupid question but i need to ask it ? How soon after the war did the Roundels change ? Ive seen some things that contradict each other ? Im building a Mk.18 Spitfire and a Tempest Mk.VI both in the post war desert scheme ? Ive seen some sources say this roundel, 

jDCV9e7.jpg

Came into use pretty soon after the war. Im inclined to believe that source. Ive seen another source say it wasn't in widespread use until the early 1950’s ? I need to know which would be the correct roundels to use on the mentioned aircraft ? Those ⬆️ or these  ⬇️pAFIg1M.jpg

The one source im getting confused by is Aeroflight.co.uk.

GzlbwuC.png

Like i said i think the first roundel i displayed. The red, white, blue roundel is correct ? Though if i can use the red/blue ones it would make sourcing the post war ones a moot point ? Any help recieved is greatly appreciated and i will thank you in advance. 

 

Dennis

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Dennis,

 

You didn't have this already saved? I have to refer to it all the time, as I don't have the RAF roundel types memorized...yet! Which Mk 18 do you wan to model? I have the On Target monograph on Griffon Spits and can look up the upper wing roundel type, if that helps. Let me guess- TP270 by any chance?

Mike

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_roundels

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I think the postwar reduced visibility roundel (as per aeroflight) has different proportions to the wartime type B you show. In theory it is easy as the B would only have been used on wing uppers of day fighters, I think. And probably not on the Tempest VI as the B was replaced by a C (narrow white ring) with effect as of early January 45, in Europe at least, and IIRC the VI was not operational at that point. So post war roundels with a broad white ring would likely be the type D you show, however, there may have been repaints ( fairly certain there were) of earlier types with non-standard proportions - but possibly not on the types concerned.

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23 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

 

You didn't have this already saved? I have to refer to it all the time, as I don't have the RAF roundel types memorized...yet! 

I keep trying to open the link mike ? Everytime i get down to the post war area. The link locks me out and all i get is script, no images. 

 

Dennis 

 

Edit : I tried going to the page directly without the link. Still locks me out so its not your link. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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The postwar tricolour roundels, with proportions 1-2-3 (sometime known among enthusiasts as type D), was officially introduced in May 1947 with AMO A.413/47. Then a period of uncertainty followed because of the way the AMO was worded, that caused confusion between the new type and the prewar style (with different proportions) and the final design was confirmed in October of the same year.

The new roundel was to be applied to all existing aircraft in occasion of their first repaint, meaning that the previous wartime roundels were in use for some more time, often with aircraft carrying different roundels present within the same Squadron.

Spitfire and Tempests in the postwar desert scheme would have carried the new roundel as they were repainted after its introduction. Pictures of these aircraft clearly show the new roundel and several also shows the same aircraft already carrying it before the desert scheme was introduced.

 

As Tempestfan correctly stated, in January 1945 the two-colour roundel (Type B ) had been replaced by a tricolour with narrow white ring (what many call type C). The later two-colour roundel was IIRC introduced in 1970 and differed in proportions from the wartime type.

 

Couple of points: a small number of postwar types carried for a while the prewar tricolour roundel, particularly in the FAA. This had different proportions from the correct postwar type. I should also mention that the definitions type A, B, C, D etc were introduced only for modelling purposes by some author (someone here may remember who he was), they are not official Air Ministry designations, I'm using them here only as they are well known and often used on aftermarket decal sheet and in books.

 

Edited by Giorgio N
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Just to throw a slight curve into this, it seems the roundel colour changed in the mid 60s from Aircraft Blue to Roundel Blue when the coulrs were adopted in BS381C. I'd thought this an apocryphal tale, but in his most recent SAM article, Paul Lucas mentioned Aircraft Blue as being the bright blue roundel colour from 1948 onwards.

 

I think the red should always be Post office Red/Cherry (not seen any indication it changed).

 

One point about decal sheets is many modern ones are a bit off as they tend to use Pantone colours and there is no direct match - the blues are often too dark and the reds not right either.

Edited by Dave Fleming
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39 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

As Tempestfan correctly stated, in January 1945 the two-colour roundel (Type B) had been replaced by a tricolour with narrow white ring (what many call type C). The later two-colour roundel was IIRC introduced in 1970 and differed in proportions from the wartime type.

 

I should also mention that the definitions type A, B, C, D etc were introduced only for modelling purposes by some author (someone here may remember who he was), they are not official Air Ministry designations, ...

 

Just for clarification: The so-called type C was in use of fuselages and wing undersides of day fighters from 1942 I think (I always confuse introduction of them with introductionof the DFS).

 I think it was Mike Bowyer.

Re the proportions, I‘d describe type A as 1-3-5 and D as 2-4-6, but I think that means the same.

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6 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

Just for clarification: The so-called type C was in use of fuselages and wing undersides of day fighters from 1942 I think (I always confuse introduction of them with introductionof the DFS).

 I think it was Mike Bowyer.

Re the proportions, I‘d describe type A as 1-3-5 and D as 2-4-6, but I think that means the same.

 

Mike Bowyer rings a bell, must have been him. .

Yes, type C roundels were introduced in June 1942 but for all aircraft, not only fighters (apart from the various rules for the different roles, like no underwing roundel on night bombers and fighters and the retention of type B roundels on PR types and so on...). On the fuselage the roundel had a yellow ring (type C1).

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1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

As Tempestfan correctly stated, in January 1945 the two-colour roundel (Type B ) had been replaced by a tricolour with narrow white ring (what many call type C). The later two-colour roundel was IIRC introduced in 1970 and differed in proportions from the wartime type.

Wasn't yellow also used for the narrow outer ring? Some AM decal sheets certainly render it that way.

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3 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

Wasn't yellow also used for the narrow outer ring? Some AM decal sheets certainly render it that way.

 

On the type C roundel the fuselage roundel always had the yellow outer wing.

In addition, when in January 1945 the type B roundel on the upper wing was replaced by the type C, 2 TAF requested to have a yellow ring around roundels in all position for day flying aircraft. This was in the end accepted so types like Spitfire Tempest and Typhoon wore these markings for a while. 2 TAF aircraft also had removed the sky spinner and tail band from the Day Fighter Scheme while aircraft in the UK retained these features. After the war most new aircraft seem to have been received by units in Germany wearing the standard markings used in the UK, so the use of yellow bordered roundels in positions probably only lasted 6-8 months

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In Bruce Robertson's system, the presence of the outer yellow ring was denoted by the suffix 1.  So the fuselage roundel would be A1 or C1, for example.

 In the description 1/3/5 or 2/4/6, the numbers describe the ratio of the respective diameters starting with the centre.  If you try drawing this it will become clear that they cannot be the same.

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1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

 

I think the red should always be Post office Red/Cherry (not seen any indication it changed).

 

One point about decal sheets is many modern ones are a bit off as they tend to use Pantone colours and there is no direct match - the blues are often too dark and the reds not right either.

Look at a few Xtradecal sheets on modern subjects and it seems they can't decide from one sheet to the next what red to use!?

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41 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Look at a few Xtradecal sheets on modern subjects and it seems they can't decide from one sheet to the next what red to use!?

Yeah, Xtradecal don't always do the best work it seems,  some sheet are good, some less so, but they do produce a lot of sheets, so always worth doing some research...   but you are in the right place for that ;)

 

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If you can find it, this would be a good reference.

 

https://goo.gl/images/GaWi7o

 

It explains the evolution of the immediate post war roundels quoting the relevant AMOs.

 

IIRC I picked up mine at WH Smith. They seem to ‘find’ the odd Guidleline publication and put them on the shelves. It’s a case of once they’re gone they’re gone. Keep an eye out at Smiths or Amazon/eBay etc.

 

Trevor

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3 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

On the type C roundel the fuselage roundel always had the yellow outer wing.

In addition, when in January 1945 the type B roundel on the upper wing was replaced by the type C, 2 TAF requested to have a yellow ring around roundels in all position for day flying aircraft. This was in the end accepted so types like Spitfire Tempest and Typhoon wore these markings for a while. 2 TAF aircraft also had removed the sky spinner and tail band from the Day Fighter Scheme while aircraft in the UK retained these features. After the war most new aircraft seem to have been received by units in Germany wearing the standard markings used in the UK, so the use of yellow bordered roundels in positions probably only lasted 6-8 months

Thanks, Giorgio. When and where, then, would one find the wing type C roundels with a white outer ring?

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11 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Thanks, Giorgio. When and where, then, would one find the wing type C roundels with a white outer ring?

 

I don't think I've ever seen type C roundels with white outer rings. To the best of my knowledge it wasn't an official marking, if any existed they would have probably been the result of local repaints that for some reason left a white ring.This unless some kind of experimental marking was tested that I don't know of.. and since there's a lot of things I don't know, I'm happy to be proved wrong on this one as would make for an interesting exception on a model 😁

 

White outer rings on the other hand were and are still used with the postwar roundel when applied on dark blue or black areas in high visibility schemes, see for example aircraft in the Raspberry Ripple scheme or in the overall black trainer scheme

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10 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I don't think I've ever seen type C roundels with white outer rings. To the best of my knowledge it wasn't an official marking, if any existed they would have probably been the result of local repaints that for some reason left a white ring.This unless some kind of experimental marking was tested that I don't know of.. and since there's a lot of things I don't know, I'm happy to be proved wrong on this one as would make for an interesting exception on a model 😁

 

White outer rings on the other hand were and are still used with the postwar roundel when applied on dark blue or black areas in high visibility schemes, see for example aircraft in the Raspberry Ripple scheme or in the overall black trainer scheme

I now realize I misread tempestfan's post #3 in which he mentioned the narrow white rings: he was referring to the inner ones as type B's became type C's on the wings.

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Not only that , but went back and rode the tail turret for approx. 10 minutes until I got a very uneasy feeling it was about to fall

off the end with me in it ! . Going forward , the pilot beckoned me to him and gave me a right royal shouted rollicking for

upsetting the trim ! , oops . If you have the Squadron / Signal Wellington in Action book , number 76 , there is a pic . of one

exactly the same on page 48 .

                                                 Don .

 

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Dennis, 

AFAIK, this Desert scheme was introduced around mid 1949 and as has been mentioned above, the Type 'D' Red / White / Blue roundels were introduced a good two years before then. All the photographs that I've come across show these roundels present in all six positions and not the red / blue roundels that we typically see on upper wing 'wartime' era aircraft. 

 

Now if I read your original post correctly, are you thinking about using the red / blue roundels you have because you do not have the correct sized red / white / blue roundel decals? If so, please do not do this, they will ruin the overall look of yours model(s). Now I've got enough roundels to wallpaper a good section of my house so please sing out and ask for help if this is the case. 

 

We are all good mates here on BM so take the time to get things right, you won't forgive yourself otherwise. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

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No Dave @Rabbit Leader ... Even in desperation i wouldn't go that crazy, to use the complete set of wrong roundels. Not after the work i put into scratch building the Mk.6.  If I did i’d probably be drummed & fifed out of the forum for that. Maybe If there was some wiggle room for doubt, i would consider the possibility. But there definitely isn't any room here. In the end i would have just boxed up the kits. Then stored them until i was able to come up with proper markings. 

    However Ive already been contacted by a fellow member. He not only has the correct roundels. But the entire decal set for the Mk.18. He also has the Mk.6 decals. Although those are taken from more than one source so are cobbled together. They should arrive today or tomorrow. I agree we are all good mates here. Ive been utterly surprised by the Generosity and Friendliness i have seen more than once since joining the Forum. I’ve recieved more gifts and help than i care to admit to. Ive tried to pass it on as often as i am able to to others. 

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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