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cema_ga

Luftwaffe torpedo-aiming sight?

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Hi!

What was a torpedo-aiming device on Luftwaffe torpedo bombers (He-111, Ju-88/188)?

IMHO Lofte bombsight was used for level bombing, but was not appropriate for torpedo attacks. On some torpedo equipped Heinkels Lofte windows were permanently covered...So, what was in use instead of?

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Good question! After looking through my written references on the Ju-88 and He-111, as well as my copy of Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Carrying Aircraft and Operations in WW2, I could not find any photos or diagrams of the equipment located in the cockpit used to aim torpedoes in either the Ju-88 and He-111. The only photos or written description I could find in the many  reference works I have on both aircraft were of the exterior. On the Ju-88A-4torp and the later Ju-88A-17, there was a bulged fairing on the RH side of the  nose that covered the mechanism used for setting the steering of the torpedoes; the A-4torp retained the gondola under the fuselage but the A-17's had the gondola removed. On the He-111 torpedo-carrying variants- the He-111H-4 and H-6, it appears the cabling that allowed the steering of the torpedoes to be set ran externally from the bomb-aimer's position underneath the nose- see the attached photo link. That's about the gist of what I have- sorry! Maybe another BM'er has more information.

Mike

 

https://www.militaryimages.net/media/torpedo-bombers.114551/

Edited by 72modeler
added text and photo

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1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

The only photos or written description I could find in the many  reference works I have on both aircraft were of the exterior.

Exactly 😢

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As I understand it, the Torpedo Kommandogerat 1a and 1b, or ToKo 1a/1b for short, were used in Ju88 and He111. If you go to the following link,there is a photo of a 1a  installed in the nose of an He111. its position seems to correspond with the exposed linkages under the nose of the He111 in the link from 72modeller.

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/t/Torpedo/Luftruder L 2.html

 

I think the ToKo panel was installed on the starboard side of the cockpit in the Ju88, presumably corresponding with the forward end of the external fairing. Im not sure of the exact function but the dial with the little ship would was maybe a sort of lead-computing input with some depth setting and toggle switches for release. There is a drawing on page 81 of Aero Detail 20 - Ju88 that seems to confirm this.

 

if you scroll down towards the bottom of the following link, there are more photos of 1a and 1b plus a third type:

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente-englisch/katalog/Katalogmenue/web/new site/frames2/KatalogMenue.htm

 

I bought the same book as 72modeller hoping it would have all the answers - its ok for operational history but not much use for airframe and configuration details.

 

 

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Incredible! Where in the world did you find that reference? It never ceases to amaze me how the internet has brought model builders, their references, and techniques together from around the world! The combined knowledge boggles the mind! Thanks for sharing this very rare photo collection with us. Good on yer, mate! 👍

Mike

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12 hours ago, Doomfang said:

third type

WOW!

Such an amazing info about ToKo!

 

Many thanks!

 

Shimon

Edited by cema_ga

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Does anyone know how the pilot and bombardier in the He111/ Ju88 actually worked together to get the aircraft into correct torpedo launch position?

 

At this link: https://www.reflexvisier.com/revi16b?lightbox=dataItem-jqazmhqx1

 

There is a photo of a Revi 16B fitted to an He111 on some sort of moveable mount. The sight is actually sitting vertically so presumably must have been swung into position when needed.

 

Did the pilot use the Revi sight to visually line up the target while the bombardier used the ToKo set to launch torpedos? I can't think what else an He111 pilot would use a gunsight for.

 

By the by, at the same link, there is also a nice shot of a Revi 16b fitted to a Ju88G in the canopy framing above the pilots head for aiming the 'scrage musik'. You can also see the Naxos unit.

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Doomfang wrote: "I can't think what else an He111 pilot would use a gunsight for."

At least two He111-equipped wings on the Eastern Front (KG27 and KG55, IIRC) had a 14th Squadron designated as train-hunters, as in "14.(Eis)/KG55". Eis is short for Eisenbahn or railroad. There are photos of He111s with fixed nose-mounted guns. Mackay, "He111" p.160 is one. Maybe the Revi in the photo you mentioned is from one of these train-hunters?

Richard, your antipode in Austria

 

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Another one: The "Klappvisier" (folding visor) in the nosecone seems to indicate that the torpedo was aimed by the bombardier, not the pilot.

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/web/new site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

click on the white "T" in the rectangle at left, then under the heading "Torpedo" on the red "Abwurfwaffe PVC.." (third from bottom up)

hth, Richard

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5 hours ago, Richard502 said:

Another one: The "Klappvisier" (folding visor) in the nosecone seems to indicate that the torpedo was aimed by the bombardier, not the pilot.

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/web/new site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

click on the white "T" in the rectangle at left, then under the heading "Torpedo" on the red "Abwurfwaffe PVC.." (third from bottom up)

hth, Richard

Isn't "Klappvisier" better rendered as "folding sight" in English?

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On 16/02/2019 at 14:34, Seahawk said:

Isn't "Klappvisier" better rendered as "folding sight" in English?

Visier on its own translates as visor, and there's a 14th century visor style specifically called klappvisier. So I don't know how appropriate the term would be for a sight of some kind but it's definitely appropriate for a folding visor.

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