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IAF colours


Andre B

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Andre B said:

Yes, I knew. But what brown where the aircrafts painted in? And not only Avia, Spitfire and Mustang...

 

Cheers / André

Most Spitfire came in standart RAF late war colors, Dark green, Ocean grey and medium Seagrey, later on i think that the Ocean grey was repainted in a Brown color.

The Mustang where in natural metal, but where later painted in RAL 8008, 7044 and 5008, the RAL 8008 did come in several Shades, you can mix a correct one with humbrol (3pts 110 + 1pt 119.)

 

Bo

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14 hours ago, Bo hermansen said:

Most Spitfire came in standart RAF late war colors, Dark green, Ocean grey and medium Seagrey, later on i think that the Ocean grey was repainted in a Brown color.

The Mustang where in natural metal, but where later painted in RAL 8008, 7044 and 5008, the RAL 8008 did come in several Shades, you can mix a correct one with humbrol (3pts 110 + 1pt 119.)

 

Bo

 

As many of the P-51D came from Sweden I knew that they where in NMT and silver. I already built those aircrafts. As the grey/green Spitfires...

 

But still it is the brown/blue colours that it is hard to found out. RAL 8000, RAL 8008 or RAF Dark Earth for the brown colour? Or... ?

 

There is one suggesting with Hu 26 (2) with H 29 (1) and H 34 (1). And now you came up with Hu 110 (3) and 119 (1).

 

I feel Hu 29 is to dark and tried Hu 118 that is lighter. It feels better according to the picture of the downed P-51D in the J 26 book. But compared to the picture of the P-51D at IDF Air Force Museum not as dark reddish brown.

 

Still not convinced...

 

/André

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Hi   Andre

 

you could try the mixes,  or get some of the other paint,  if you really want to check, you can buy a fan of RAL colour chips,  https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Ral_colour_guides.asp

the one for £14.99 I'm tempted by,  especially know as looking at a youtube on painting Tiger tanks

I see many of the WW2 German armour colours are in it, along with the RAL matches for the Israeli colours...   There maybe the same available in Sweden, or cheaper from Germany

 

One final point,  and I'm not trying to be rude,  but how good is your colour vision?

there is a test here

https://xritephoto.com/cool-tools

 

It's actually quite hard, and you need a decent monitor, or a calibrated one.   Took me 3 goes, in the end on a proper monitor when I wasn't tired. 

 

HTH

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1 hour ago, Andre B said:

 

As many of the P-51D came from Sweden I knew that they where in NMT and silver. I already built those aircrafts. As the grey/green Spitfires...

 

But still it is the brown/blue colours that it is hard to found out. RAL 8000, RAL 8008 or RAF Dark Earth for the brown colour? Or... ?

 

There is one suggesting with Hu 26 (2) with H 29 (1) and H 34 (1). And now you came up with Hu 110 (3) and 119 (1).

 

I feel Hu 29 is to dark and tried Hu 118 that is lighter. It feels better according to the picture of the downed P-51D in the J 26 book. But compared to the picture of the P-51D at IDF Air Force Museum not as dark reddish brown.

 

Still not convinced...

 

/André

No I don't come up with 3 parts H 110 and 1 part H 119, Yoav Efrati from Israel did, Yoav is together with Raanan Weiss a leading autority in these matters, so take his word for it

The RAL 5008/8008/7044 are made by several compagnies, Mr P makes a great set, WEM makes a RAL 5008, Xtracolro makes a 5008/8008 and 7044

 

Bo

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45 minutes ago, Bo hermansen said:

No I don't come up with 3 parts H 110 and 1 part H 119, Yoav Efrati from Israel did, Yoav is together with Raanan Weiss a leading autority in these matters, so take his word for it

The RAL 5008/8008/7044 are made by several compagnies, Mr P makes a great set, WEM makes a RAL 5008, Xtracolro makes a 5008/8008 and 7044

 

Bo

 

The same Yoav Efrati (according to Beppe earlier) that advised Hu 29 Dark Earth for the brown?

 

Sky's Decals is an Israeli brand and they say RAL 8000. Not RAL 8008...

 

/André

 

Ps.

What blue are IDF using for the roundel star?

Edited by Andre B
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Yes the same, but bear in mind that this was from a book written in 2005, and I think that the Humbrol 29 came from an IDFAF S.A. Vautor, shot down during

the six day war, the part was found in one of Saddams Palaces and ended up in Yoavs hands, the color looked like hUMBROL 29.

That said people are allowed to learn new things, Yoav says that they where several Shades of RAL 8008, so several paints could be the right answer, his mix

is proberly made to match some part he had found on a more recent descovered part.

The same thing happend with the color of the S-199, it was believed that they came to Israel in RLM 2 or something similar, but some time ago Yoav and Raanan got

in contact with an elder gentleman that had worked on the S-199 as a mechanic during the 1948 war, he had a fuelcap tucked away in his drawer, it was a match for RAL 6013

and the mechanic confirmed that this was the color they where painted in.

 

THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE - CAMOUFLAGE & MARKINGS - PART 1 - 1948 TO 1967 and Yoavs own book about the Israeli air forces colors are both great books, the problem with book

is that they have  a tendency to become absolete, when new data and research come into wiev.

 

I would go with the colors that Mr Paint makes, I have seens Yoav use them recently on several kits

 

Bo

 

P.S color Photo in books and museum aircraft are useless as a reference, when the S-199 at Hatzerim was restored, it was painted in RAL 6013, but after a year, it had faded so much that

the color looked like RLM 02

 

Edited by Bo hermansen
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Actually, 30 to 40 years ago hardly any of older Czech sources (magazines like L+K, KP and other Czech kit producers) claimed Avias were painted in RLM 02. At the time it had been thought that S.199s had been finished in left-over light grey-green (greener than 02) German paint, which had been assigned to ˝Bohemia and Moravia protectorate˝ for use on civilian aircraft and military prototypes after German occupation. While at overhauls Avias had been repainted with darker green (RLM82?), Israel obtained its planes in late spring/early summer 1948, a year or so after the prototype's maiden flight, and all of its Messers were more or less new machines. I do remember reading elsewhere that export Israeli S.199s may have been painted with RLM02, but these were mere suggestions at best. Later, of course, this school of thought reigned supreme for decades. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Interesting link, Troy. But, did you perhaps by mistake attached the link to a demo version? I got the perfect score (0) in my first attempt.

Edited by Jure Miljevic
P.S. added
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33 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

P.S.: Interesting link, Troy. But, did you perhaps by mistake attached the link to a demo version? I got the perfect score (0) in my first attempt.

No, that the test, I just retried it,  but on a laptop that does not show colours brilliantly, and got 58 :( 

And I'm tired as I have a cold.  To get zero, I need to use a decent monitor

 

But I think just mean you have good colour vision Jure :)   

 

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3 hours ago, Bo hermansen said:

The same thing happend with the color of the S-199, it was believed that they came to Israel in RLM 2 or something similar, but some time ago Yoav and Raanan got

in contact with an elder gentleman that had worked on the S-199 as a mechanic during the 1948 war, he had a fuelcap tucked away in his drawer, it was a match for RAL 6013

and the mechanic confirmed that this was the color they where painted in.

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/2015/features/avias19972ye_1.htm

 

Quote

Yoav Efrati – 20 October 2014         

 The color applied to the Avia S-199 has eluded modelers since KP first issued a model of this Czechoslovakian manufactured airplane nearly 30 years ago. Post World War II black and white photographs of the S-199 in Czechoslovakian service, show light and dark colored airframes next to each other, which have been interpreted to be differing shades of a locally manufactured color MNO 2036 smalt 02 - similar or the same as RLM 02 or RLM 02 + a bit RLM 83 Dark Green.

 

    

In a mid-1994 visit to the Israel Air Force museum by former "Messer" pilot, president Ezer Weismann, he insisted that the gray painted S-199 on display was painted the wrong color. On 02 January 1995 I met with president Weismann, who pointed to the RLM68 color chip in my Official Monogram Painting Guide to German aircraft 1935-1945, further stating that the color was more of a khaki color, "as seen on soldiers uniforms".

 

 

Less than a year later, IAF museum curator, Avi Moshe Segal was presented an original painted S-199 fuel cap by retired IAF maintenance officer, Shabtai Katz. The color of the cap was compared to Tambor paints RAL standard color catalog by my friend Ra'anan Weiss and was found matching RAL6013 "Reed Green".

messermysteryye_2.jpg

 

By September of 1996 the S-199 airframe in the IAF museum was painted to match the color of the fuel cap, with markings of "Messer" number D-120. With no clear UV coating applied to the newly painted airframe, D-120 faded to an overall gray color in less than a year.

messermysteryye_1.jpg

messermysteryye_3.jpg

 

The recent new tooled KP release of the Avia S-199 "Messer" renewed speculation as to its actual color, with Humbrol 31 quoted in the new kit's painting instructions. With my name credited for the markings provided in the Israeli boxing of the S-199, I had to see the originally painted fuel cap with my own eyes. On October 12, 2014 I visited the IAF museum where curator Avi Moshe presented me the key to his vault where the original Avia painted S-199 fuel cap was kept. With Tambor German RAL, United States FS595b, British Standard BS381c/1964 and Humbrol color catalogs at hand, I compared the color of the S-199 fuel cap in direct and indirect sun light. The fuel cap's khaki color was a direct match to RAL6013, it was slightly darker than FS595b-14257, and had no equivalent BS381c and Humbrol color. Fortunately for us model builders RAL6013 is available in the Revell enamel range of paints as SM362.

 

Model, Images and Text Copyright © 2015 by Yoav Efrati

 

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37 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Remember that thread.

 

Musthave looking strange with "faded grey" on top and with not so faded greygreen on the bortom of the aircraft.

 

As Revell paints are easy available in Sweden the painting of my IAF Avia was rather easy compared to the blue and brown P-51D...

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B
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There are colors manufactured by MRP and AK AIR Real colors 

And in today's known times, the Czechs used for the Avia 199 color SMALT. The KAKI 2036 is a post-war color that has been expanded and manufactured with them. is based on IKAROL Luftwafe base.

 

http://mrpaint.sk/index.php?route=product/category&path=60_61_85

 

https://ak-interactive.com/product/mno-2036-smalt-khaki-avion-10ml/

 

https://ak-interactive.com/product/olive-braun-olive-brown-ral-8008-10ml/

 

https://ak-interactive.com/product/graublau-grey-blue-ral-5008-10-ml/

 

https://ak-interactive.com/product/seidengrau-silk-grey-ral-7044/

 

the easiest way to color the Israelis

 

P.k

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Hi Andre

 

I asked epaint about their RAL fan decks, and the colour accuracy

Quote

The RAL K7 and K5 fans are manufactured by RAL themselves and are reasonably accurate. They are made from paint onto card. However, RAL does not publish the accuracy of these fan decks.

If you need more accurate sheets, you will need to contact RAL direct at Ral-farben.de and chose either the 840 HR or 841 GL colour cards. Whilst these can vary slightly the variance from the standard is given on each individual sheet.

 

So, if you can't specific colours, or they get expensive ordering them,  and you can get a RAL colour fan deck  at reasonable price,  15 GBP is what, about 150 Skr,   in the UK that 7-10 bottles of model paint,  and the you have something  to match against... I don't know how much you earn,  but I bet a set of those chips is  less in time than you have spent in posting here and on IPMS Stockholm...

 

I may well get a set myself, as it's the sort of thing that can be very useful,   partly as many of the colours in the fan deck were WW2 german armour colours,

Off topic, but the subject of RAL colours, and their origin is discussed here, as well as some RAL used...    well worth 10 minutes of you time

 

HTH

cheers

T

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Just to throw a spanner into the works, IsraDecals' instructions for their Gloster Meteor sheet states that NF.13s for Israel were painted in the UK prior to delivery in the closest available British colours to Israeli camouflage -dark earth and Oxford blue.

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I made an try with Revell SM 381 (RAL 8025). It has that shade of reddish Brown that RAF Dark Earth doesn't have. I think I am close to the "AIF Camouflage" formula...

 

Cheers / André

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  • 2 years later...

RAL 8000 is .... RAL8000.
Is is slightly more brown than RAL 7008.

And both colours are standard available colours worldwide in all paint shops (not model paints).
Revell has a lot of RAL colours, yet alas they don't make RAL 8000 (anymore). It used to be 380.

Edited by Steben
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3 hours ago, Steben said:

RAL 8000 is .... RAL8000.
Is is slightly more brown than RAL 7008.

And both colours are standard available colours worldwide in all paint shops (not model paints).
Revell has a lot of RAL colours, yet alas they don't make RAL 8000 (anymore). It used to be 380.

 

FWIW... Hataka has RAL 8000 in its three lines of paint and AK Interactive in its 3rd. Gen water-based Acrylics (as an AFV colour). 

 

Best,

Daniel

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5 hours ago, Hook said:

There's also this Hataka set: 

 

https://www.hataka-hobby.com/HTK-AS34-Israeli-Air-Force-Paint-Set-Early-Period

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

AK Interactive has also a similar set.  The individual colours were already listed above by @politicni komisar.spacer.png

Edited by Fukuryu
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  • 2 years later...

@Troy Smith

 

Quote

My question to you was  how far apart RAL 5008 blue, 8008 brown and 7044 Silk grey are from Grey Blue (FS-35052) Medium Brown (FS-30215) over Silk Grey (FS-16440)

 

I'd look at my chips but the weather is being frequently overcast at the moment. 

 

Further discussion is here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049519-iaf-colours/

 

Two first colors are very far apart, from those three only the grey could be considered similar. I've just quickly measured them:

 

RAL5008 vs FS35052: 9.00 DE

100x100100x100

 

RAL8008 vs FS30215: 6.98 DE

100x100100x100

 

RAL7044 vs FS16440: 2.23 DE

100x100100x100

 

Those RGB swatches are calculated using SCI mode and D65/10 light/observer not the sRGB standard D65/2, but with that large difference it does not matter much.

 

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7 hours ago, Bo hermansen said:

Humbrol 29, 134 and 165 should me a perfect match !

 

Bo

Humbrol 134 is long gone.

H29 and H165 are likely the closest in the Humbrol range,  but neither are particularly close to RAL 8008 or RAL 7044.

RAL808 is olive brown,  H29 maybe a bit dark and grey, h26 maybe better?

and 7044  silk grey is a very pale slightly olive grey, H165 plus a load of white maybe.

 

I say this from playing around mixing with Vallejo Model Color and a RAL deck....    

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