Andre B Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Hello! RAL 8000 (FS 30215) "Brown" together with RAL 5008 (FS 35053) "Blue" and RAL 7044 (FS 37722) "Grey" is said to be used by IAF first fighters - Avia199, Spitfire Mk. IXe and P-51D Mustang by Sky Decals. So what is RAL 8000? Brown, yellow or... ? Is there any Humbrol equalent to RAL 8000? Or Tamiya? Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beppe Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) I used humbrol 134 for the bleue and h29 for the brown. Those were the colors advised by Yoav Efrati in colors & markings of the israeli air force Edited January 13, 2019 by beppe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, Andre B said: Hello! RAL 8000 (FS 30215) "Brown" together with RAL 5008 (FS 35053) "Blue" and RAL 7044 (FS 37722) "Grey" is said to be used by IAF first fighters - Avia199, Spitfire Mk. IXe and P-51D Mustang by Sky Decals. So what is RAL 8000? Brown, yellow or... ? Is there any Humbrol equalent to RAL 8000? Or Tamiya? Cheers / André first, while RAL5008 and RAL7044 are noted as being matches for the Israeli colours, I'd not then use the FS595 as the same, just closest in FS595. this is a very handy site https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp note, look up RAL 8000, and it does not list a close FS595 the clostes F595 for RAL7044 on epaint is FS16440, not fS37722, which is not even on the equivalents... have a play... Note, Hataka do a set of early Israeli colours, which might be easier. Valljo do RAL5008 as Luftwaffe Uniform http://www.creativemodels.co.uk/av_vallejo_model_color_luftwaffe_uniform_wwii-p-7339.html and FS30215 as Cork Brown http://www.creativemodels.co.uk/av_vallejo_model_color_cork_brown-p-7366.html finally Creative Models a conversion chart. which you swap different paint brands about, but, again, a near match http://www.creativemodels.co.uk/paint_conversion.php/manufacturers_id/9/page/1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod mcq Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 RAL 8000 Grunbraun is available in the Xtracrylix armour colours range as XA1803 and X803 in the Xtracolour enamel range Hannants XA1803 Hannants X803 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Hello These paints had been introduced far too late for Avias. Also, only a few Spitfires, from 105th Sqn I believe, wore this scheme in 1954-55 before the type had been phased out. It was a similar story with Mustangs, although a dozen or so P-51 Ds in brown-blue-gray camouflage, again with 105th Sqn I think, flew combat missions during Suez Crisis. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 Mmm... What Hataka makes is interesting when it is confirmed that it is the accurate colours. I havn't seen any Hataka paints compared to others... It is almost like Tamiya AS and TS spray paints where there is no camparing charts to any other brand. And that includes also Tamiya's own "X-paints". Is Xtracrylics XA1803 the same shade as Hu 29? Rather confusing... /André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello These paints had been introduced far too late for Avias. Also, only a few Spitfires, from 105th Sqn I believe, wore this scheme in 1954-55 before the type had been phased out. It was a similar story with Mustangs, although a dozen or so P-51 Ds in brown-blue-gray camouflage, again with 105th Sqn I think, flew combat missions during Suez Crisis. Cheers Jure So there where no Avia's painted in the Brown/Green camouflage? Or... ? I have already built those aircrafts painted in the other camouflage colours. Now I am interested in building those IAF aircrafts that where painted in the Brown/Blue camouflage. This includes also Ouragan and others. But I have to find out what is what first. Cheers / André Edited January 13, 2019 by Andre B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beppe Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Not sure abut the messer, I think I saw one picture of one aircraft on static dispaly, but It wasn't operarionnal any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Andre B said: So there where no Avia's painted in the Brown/Green camouflage? No, the Avaias were all Reed Green, http://hataka-hobby.com/products/israeli-air-force-paint-set-early-period/ Quote Reed Green – RAL6013, overall colour of Avia S-199s (Czechoslovakian copy of Bf 109G with Junkers Jumo 211 F engine) – first fighters of IAF 9 minutes ago, Andre B said: Now I am interested in building those IAF aircrafts that where painted in the Brown/Blue camouflage. This includes also Ouragan and others. But I have to find out what is what first. you need a book on Israeli Camouflage, https://www.amazon.co.uk/ISRAELI-AIR-FORCE-CAMOUFLAGE-MODELLERS/dp/B0076OFAEY Sadly unavailable, pdf's are out there though. Most things that were still in service by Suez got the Blue/Brown/Grey scheme, the exception was the most modern fighters. 23 minutes ago, Andre B said: Is Xtracrylics XA1803 the same shade as Hu 29? I doubt it, and as I already pointed out, RAL8000 is not listed as a close match to FS30215 on epaint, and they sell paint, and paint chips, FS30215 which is listed in books on Israeli planes and camo as a good match to the Israeli brown, while RAL5008 blue and RAL7044 are listed in those as good matches for the blue and grey, no FS595 matches given. Hu29 is listed in one book, on Israeli Spitfires, as a possible for Israeli brown, but it's not that close. I'm not able to get to my book at the mo, so can't help more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 Mmm... According to Sky Decals Avia S-199 D-123 (101 Squadrons) was painted in Brown and Green... So if we don't take any notice about the mentioned FS-colours and only look att the RAL colours 8000 and 5008 what does it give us? RAF Dark Earth (Hu 29) sounds strange as an colour matching RAL 8000. Dark Earth must be one of the best known colours and if early IAF aircrafts where painted in Dark Earth it should be well documented. Or... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 I've also seen references to RAL 8008 for the brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Yes, Sky Models decals give D-123 camouflage as Brown and Green. However, Alex Yofe and Lawrence Nyveen in their book Avia S-199 in IAF service 1948-50 (White crow) attribute this to patched-up original scheme with fresh paint. Two photos of D-123, included in the book, confirm this. The photo of S.199, definitely in two colours top camouflage (brown and green probably), is also included in the book, but this photo had been taken around New year day 1950. By that time about a year had passed since Avia's last flight and about half a year since the type had been phased out. Then there is S.199 D.121, which by 1958 for her gate guard duties at Hatzor had been painted in brown-blue-gray colours. In another White crow publication, Spitfire Mk.IX in the Israeli air force service by Alex Yofe, brown of the new paint scheme is given as RAL 8008 and its FS equivalent as FS30145. This colour is similar, but considerably lighter than RAF Dark Earth. Yoav Efrati also gives brown as RAL 8008 in his book Colors & markings of the Israeli air force (IsraDecal). RAF Dark Earth may have been used on Beaufighters and definitely found its way on Spitfire D.130, although only on an engine side panel, taken from downed Egyptian Spitfire Mk.9 fighter-bomber. Cheers Jure , 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: Spitfire Mk.IX in the Israeli air force service by Alex Yofe, brown of the new paint scheme is given as RAL 8008 and its FS equivalent as FS30145. HI Jure This is the book I was referring too, if you look in the back there are Humbrol mixes for the IAF colours, as I said, book not hand. FWIW, here's a P-51 at the IAF Museum at Haterzim which gives a reasonable idea of the colours, maybe a bit dark and how they fade there a short film clip here in colour supposed to be from the Six Day War, but the Mystere IV and Vautour are in the Brown/Blue/Grey which may help 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Hello Troy Humbrol paints mixes: - H26(50%) + H29(25%) + H34(25%) for RAL8008 - H25(80%) + H33(15%) + H96(5%) for RAL5008 - H64(70%) + H34(30%) for RAL7044 Sounds a bit complicated. Does it have to be Humbrol? XtraColor produces all three paints as X264 (RAL5008), X265 (RAL8008) and X266 (RAL7044) and on-line modeller's shop are well stocked with them. Cheers Jure 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello Troy Humbrol paints mixes: - H26(50%) + H29(25%) + H34(25%) for RAL8008 - H25(80%) + H33(15%) + H96(5%) for RAL5008 - H64(70%) + H34(30%) for RAL7044 Sounds a bit complicated. Does it have to be Humbrol? XtraColor produces all three paints as X264 (RAL5008), X265 (RAL8008) and X266 (RAL7044) and on-line modeller's shop are well stocked with them. Cheers Jure Humbrol paints are almost available everywhere. I have never seen Xtracrylics or Xtracolors. If someone tells me what an colour or shade is by using Humbrol numbers I understand and can reflect to it. But by refering to an brand and colour I never seen tells me nothing. Refering to Hu 29 Dark Earth tells me a lot. It's like talking about Swedish Air Force colours. It's easy for me to knew what colours to use when it comes to Swedish Viggen, Draken and Lansen as I live in Sweden and have those aircrafts almost standing outside of my door. I knew an Viggen is painted in tan, medium green, dark green and black. But I cant say today how many Viggen kits I've seen built by experienced builders outside Sweden painted in brown, light green, medium green and dark green or "black green". There is no "black green" in Sweden just black, matt black. Mostly I build P-51D's and Swedish aircrafts. It is in that case interesting to build an aircraft (the same one) painted as it was when it was flewn by USAAF, Sweden and IAF. The IAF Mustang's are also mentioned in the Swedish book about the J 26 Mustang (P-51D) with pictures. The downed P-51D in Sinai is well knewn and also the P-51D in Haterzim. Now I knew where to start. And Hu 29 doesn't look that wrong (compared to Hu 93, Hu 94 and others). And maybe I try to get Xtracrylics when I knew what to order (RAL 8000 and RAL 8008) to try out what looks best... Best Regards André Edited January 14, 2019 by Andre B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Andre B said: It is in that case interesting to build an aircraft (the same one) painted as it was when it was flewn by USAAF, Sweden and IAF. Same idea has occurred to me Hmm, maybe tricky to pin down the identities of them all, certainly with photos, one I do know of is "Twilight Tear" http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/serial/44-63864 Quote 1944: Dec 14, accepted by USAAF as 44-63864 - served with 8th AF, 78th FG, 83rd FS as "Twilight Tear". Pilot Hubert Davis, Duxford, England with 3 confirmed kills: 2 Me262, 1 Me109 1945: stored after WWII, Germany 1948: Swedish AF as RSWAF 26158 1953: Feb 09, Israeli AF as IDFAF 23??, carried ferry# 3506 on delivery HTH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Hello Andre XtraColour paints were just a suggestion. I have fond memories on my brief visit to Sweden two decades or so ago. While driving about I regularly encountered aircraft on polls nearby. It used to be the same around here but now most of the gate guards or aircraft on roadside polls had been scrapped, ˝privatized˝ or falling victims to other barbaric practices. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 I made an quick paintjob using Hu 29 Dark Earth and Tamiya TS 15... https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10561&p=85308#p85308 I think the blue is ok but the brown is rather Dark. Any opinions? Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Hello André With usual caveat applying about difficulties of estimating paint hues from computer screen ... blue looks slightly too dark, but nothing that a matt coat or a bit of weathering could not correct. Brown should be considerably lighter. Perhaps adding a fair amount of white with a touch of red would help? Cheers Jure P.S.: Is the kit the old Airfix D/K Mustang, the one with Swedish and 249 Sqn RAF decals? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said: Hello André With usual caveat applying about difficulties of estimating paint hues from computer screen ... blue looks slightly too dark, but nothing that a matt coat or a bit of weathering could not correct. Brown should be considerably lighter. Perhaps adding a fair amount of white with a touch of red would help? Cheers Jure P.S.: Is the kit the old Airfix D/K Mustang, the one with Swedish and 249 Sqn RAF decals? Hello Jure, Yes, it is the old second generation P-51D from Airfix. The one with Swedish and RAF decals. As TS 15 Blue not is an matt paint I gave the aircraft an layer of Humbrol matt varnish. It was an quick job and maybe it could have another layer of matt varnish. In real life the blue and the dark earth painted on the Airfixen kit is slightly darker than the picture. At least on my screen. I agree with you Hu 29 is much to Dark... Sheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Andre B said: but the brown is rather Dark. Any opinions? I have used Hu 110 natural Wood as a slightly lighter substitue for Hu 29 in the past, to my eyes, the tin I have appears to have similar characteristics to Hu29 but not quite as dark, maybe worth considering. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo hermansen Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) The S-199 where painted an Avia color that match RAL 6013 when they arrived in Israel. Revell 362 is a 100% match This is the latest research by Yoav Efrati and Raanan Weiss Bo Edited June 14, 2021 by Bo hermansen 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre B Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Bo hermansen said: The S-199 where painted RAL 6013 when they arrived in Israel. Revell 362 is a 100% match This is the latest research by Yoav Efrati and Raanan Weiss Bo Yes, I knew. But what brown where the aircrafts painted in? And not only Avia, Spitfire and Mustang... Cheers / André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) On 1/13/2019 at 10:57 PM, Jure Miljevic said: Sounds a bit complicated. Does it have to be Humbrol? XtraColor produces all three paints as X264 (RAL5008), X265 (RAL8008) and X266 (RAL7044) and on-line modeller's shop are well stocked with them. Cheers Jure Thanks for that Jure. I feel an order to Hannants coming on. I'd been toying with the idea of using the Colourcoats responses to R840 5008, Marrone Mimetico and AP507C. Edited January 18, 2019 by JosephLalor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Hello André, I thought I recognized the old Airfix Mustang with its too slim a fuselage. JosephLalor, I am glad it helped. The only Colourcoats paint I have is Dull Dark Green so my first-hand experience with this brand are limited. However, I am not sure RA browns are the right substitutes for IAF paint. Judging by a web sample here Marrone Mimetico 1 looks very similar to Dark Earth André used on his P-51 and Marrone Mimetico 2 here has too much red in it. Again, this is only a rough comparison. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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