Mosquito MkXIII - Help needed to identify

[Grey Beema]

I need some help identifying a 29 Squadron RAF Mosquito Mk XIII particularly the serial number and aircraft code.  The particular aircraft I am trying to identify was involved in the destruction of an Me110 Night Fighter some time after 2300hrs 17.09.44. in the Arnhem area.

 

The aircraft was flown by Lieutenant D Price with Sub Lieutenant R Armitage as his AI operator who had been seconded to the RAF to learn Airbourne Interception and bring the learnings back to the Fleet Air Arm to develop their Night Fighting capability.  The Me110 was their final claim and the third aircraft they destroyed (two other damaged claims had been made) making them the top scoring night fighting team in the Fleet Air Arm.

 

I have looked at the 29 Squadron ORB both Summary and Detailed and all it tells you is that aircraft type (Mosquito XIII with Mk VIII A.I.).  The 29 Squadron Combat Reports don't help either, although there is a narrative of each patrol all it gives is the aircraft type as above.  My last hope is Lieutenant Price's Log Book but an internet search has revealed nothing so far.

 

I have seen some pictures of 29 Squadron aircraft - which bear the squadron letters RO.  I assume that the colour scheme would be standard intruder scheme with Night undersides and by September 44 at partial invasion stripes..

 

Any information would be great fully received, or if you know of the whereabouts of any source of information that could lead me to the identity of this aircraft or aircraft assigned to 29 Squadron at the time it will be greatfully recieved...

 

Many thanks in advance..

 

 

[Seahawk]

Names not found in indexes of either Bowyer's Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF or Bowman's The Men Who Flew The Mosquito.  The former has a long list of Mosquitoes which served with 29 Sq, often with a correlation to a code.  29's Mosquito XIIIs seem to have been come from the HK363-534 and MM436-623 series.  If you can come up with either a serial or a code, get in touch: you may be in luck!

[Grey Beema]

12 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Names not found in indexes of either Bowyer's Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF or Bowman's The Men Who Flew The Mosquito.  The former has a long list of Mosquitoes which served with 29 Sq, often with a correlation to a code.  29's Mosquito XIIIs seem to have been come from the HK363-534 and MM436-623 series.  If you can come up with either a serial or a code, get in touch: you may be in luck!

Thanks Seahawk, if I can find anymore info, I'll come back to you if I may..

[Grey Beema]

I have been trawling the internet for information on 29 Squadron Mosquito XIIIs.  

 

Lieutenant D.R.O Price (also reported as Flt Price in one report) and SLt Armitage were involved in three claims that I can see:-

Ju188 Destroyed 9/10 June '44, Serial and Aircraft ID not recorded.

Bf110 Destroyed 21/22 June '44 Serial and Aircraft ID not recorded.

Bf110 Destroyed 17/18 Sept '44 Serial and Aircraft ID not recorded.

 

I have stolen downloaded a bunch of information from a site called Mossie.org - and by mashing it together I have identified a possible 32 aircraft that were used by 29 Sqn during or after Sept '44. 

 

Of that 32 I have an associated 29 Sqn code with 7 machines.

HK382  RO*T  Lost 13.3.45

HK428  RO*K

HK442  RO*Z

HK524  RO*F

HK529  RO*V  Lost 17.12.44

MM446 RO*Q

MM463 RO*J  Lost 20/21.09.44

 

Which leaves 25 where I don't know the aircraft code letter.

 

I cannot find a Log book for Lt Price and so I'm coming rapidly to the conclusion that I am never going to be able to identify any of the aircraft flown in any of the actions above.  At least I guess that no one will be able to prove me wrong either though...

 

If anyone has a brain wave on how I can progress - please let me know...

[Welkin]

On 1/13/2019 at 1:57 PM, Grey Beema said:

If anyone has a brain wave on how I can progress - please let me know...

Toss a coin?

[Grey Beema]

1 hour ago, Welkin said:

Toss a coin?

I'm thinking either HK428 RO*K because I saw a picture of it MSG all over with disruptive Dark Green camouflage 

or

HK422 RO*Z  because I don't have a Z on the shelf and because I can do the night undersurface roughly spayed over the MSG undersurfaces - but I'll still know I can't prove it's the right aircraft...

[Welkin]

Sounds good to me - when in doubt, always do the camouflage scheme that you don't have!

[sloegin57]

49 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I'm thinking either HK428 RO*K because I saw a picture of it MSG all over with disruptive Dark Green camouflage 

or

HK422 RO*Z  because I don't have a Z on the shelf and because I can do the night undersurface roughly spayed over the MSG undersurfaces - but I'll still know I can't prove it's the right aircraft...

Is this the one you saw of HK428 - scanned from "The de Haviland Mosquito An Illustrated History" by Stuart Howe. Note the lack of Unit codes :-

It's time with 29Sqdn, though short, certainly fits in with the date of the demise of the Me110.

 

HTH

 

Dennis

[Grey Beema]

1 hour ago, sloegin57 said:

Is this the one you saw of HK428 - scanned from "The de Haviland Mosquito An Illustrated History" by Stuart Howe. Note the lack of Unit codes :-

It's time with 29Sqdn, though short, certainly fits in with the date of the demise of the Me110.

 

HTH

 

Dennis

Thanks Dennis, that wasn't the picture I saw and I had assumed to Squadron code would be on the aircraft - This proves it wasn't there...

[Seahawk]

A few serial/code correlations from Bowyer (see post 2) that you don't have (or where there are differences):

 

HK382 I, not T

HK413 D

HK418 P

HK422 Z (HK442 is in a blackout block)

HK522 L

MM548 B

 

Of those you can rule out HK413 (crashed 7/6/44), MM548 (damaged beyond repair, 16/7/44) and probably HK418 (no A-B record of service with 29 Sq).

 

I offer no judgement on which source(s) are most likely to be reliable.

 

No reason from A-B to discount any of your magnificent seven except maybe MM446, which saw previous service with 151 and 96 Sq and had therefore possibly not reached 29 Sq by the date in question.

 

[Grey Beema]

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

A few serial/code correlations from Bowyer (see post 2) that you don't have (or where there are differences):

 

HK382 I, not T

HK413 D

HK418 P

HK422 Z (HK442 is in a blackout block)

HK522 L

MM548 B

 

Of those you can rule out HK413 (crashed 7/6/44), MM548 (damaged beyond repair, 16/7/44) and probably HK418 (no A-B record of service with 29 Sq).

 

I offer no judgement on which source(s) are most likely to be reliable.

 

No reason from A-B to discount any of your magnificent seven except maybe MM446, which saw previous service with 151 and 96 Sq and had therefore possibly not reached 29 Sq by the date in question.

 

Thank you @Seahawk great information.  

 

As you can see I'm trying to go with a process of elimination.  Not quite given up on it yet...  I think I'll have another go at my spreadsheet and see it it makes identification of the aircraft involved in Price & Armitage's claims of either 9/10.9.44 or 21/22.6.44 any clearer - although I think basically the information from 29 Sqn is not there to start with.  

[spruecutter96]

Is there a possibilty that some markings could have been removed from the image by the war-time censors? Just my two penneth...

 

Chris. 

[NG899]

Living near where 60OTU was based at High Ercall, where many Mossie intruder crews trained, a question for you Dennis...

 

You know how on some Falklands Harrier GR3 photos it looks like their wing rounders were overpainted when they were not due to the film used, could the same be the case with K in your photo? Look how the lower part of the K disappears into the MSG...

 

Worth a closer look?

Just a thought.

 

Btw, Britain at War magazine has an article on night fighter Mossies, with a 29 Sqn Mossie on the cover. Worth a look or contacting the author?

 

Cheers 

 

Nick

Edited January 17, 2019 by NG899

[Z_EX]

On 15/01/2019 at 10:35, Seahawk said:

A few serial/code correlations from Bowyer (see post 2) that you don't have (or where there are differences):

 

HK382 I, not T

HK413 D

HK418 P

HK422 Z (HK442 is in a blackout block)

HK522 L

MM548 B

 

Of those you can rule out HK413 (crashed 7/6/44), MM548 (damaged beyond repair, 16/7/44) and probably HK418 (no A-B record of service with 29 Sq).

 

I offer no judgement on which source(s) are most likely to be reliable.

 

No reason from A-B to discount any of your magnificent seven except maybe MM446, which saw previous service with 151 and 96 Sq and had therefore possibly not reached 29 Sq by the date in question.

 

The RO on HK413 was Harry Ellis DFM, my Grandfather.

[Grey Beema]

I am still chugging away at this project and have decided that the aircraft would need to represent a 29 Sqn aircraft rather than struggling to find the specific aircraft.

 

I have recently taken delivery and fitted the Blackbird Models MkXII/XIII nose which means that the number of aircraft that i can model is limited.  I have also decided to model one of the aircraft that Price & Armitage scored a victory in just after D-Day either 09/10.06.44 when they destroyed a Ju188 or 21/22.06.44 when they destroyed a Bf110 rather than at Arnhem.  Thus one of; HK382 RO*I, HK422 RO*Z, HK428 RO*K, HK463 RO*J all of which had the smaller nose over the MKVIII AI equipment.

 

I am looking for some advice:- 

1. There do not seem to be many pictures of 29 Sqn during this period, I have seen photos of an aircraft captioned as HK382 RO*T (HK382 was actually I) which was Dark Green, Med Sea Grey with Med Sea Grey undersides which have been over painted Night.  I have seen a photo of HK428 RO*K (see post #8) with MSG underside.  Was there a standard in 29 Sqn for painting the underside of the aircraft in either MSG or Night?
2. Bearing in mind the two air victories took place in June 44, would Night Fighters have had Invasion Stripes?  As this is June - would they have been full invasion stripes or reduced in any way?  

Any help would be greatly appreciated..

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Grey Beema

[Graham Boak]

There are very few photos of any RAF night fighters in service because these aircraft (or rather their radar fit) were considered top secret and security was tight.  The best book on the subject that I know (from a modelling/camouflage point of view) was published by Guideline in their camouflage and markings series.  There is another dedicated work by Osprey.

 

The black undersides (Night) were added for intruder operations, and can be seen on earlier aircraft, notably of 23 Sq.  This was only permitted for earlier radar fits, and would not have been applied to the Mk.XIIIs when they were new, so it is fairly safe to paint the model without the Night.  Clearly victories scored overseas suggest that it could have been applied by that time, but it seems to have been less common as the war progressed.  The date does point to this particular AI being no longer the best available.

 

In my opinion, the photo does not show a fighter without the squadron codes, but the film used gives little contrast between the red of the code letters and the MSG of the aircraft.  Note how the lower legs of the K disappear from view.

[Grey Beema]

44 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

There are very few photos of any RAF night fighters in service because these aircraft (or rather their radar fit) were considered top secret and security was tight.  The best book on the subject that I know (from a modelling/camouflage point of view) was published by Guideline in their camouflage and markings series.  There is another dedicated work by Osprey.

 

The black undersides (Night) were added for intruder operations, and can be seen on earlier aircraft, notably of 23 Sq.  This was only permitted for earlier radar fits, and would not have been applied to the Mk.XIIIs when they were new, so it is fairly safe to paint the model without the Night.  Clearly victories scored overseas suggest that it could have been applied by that time, but it seems to have been less common as the war progressed.  The date does point to this particular AI being no longer the best available.

 

In my opinion, the photo does not show a fighter without the squadron codes, but the film used gives little contrast between the red of the code letters and the MSG of the aircraft.  Note how the lower legs of the K disappear from view.

Thanks Graham,

 

Its a shame about the Night, I like the way that in the picture of RO*T the delimitation of the black is below that of the Dark Green and looks like it's been applied later...  I think I agree about the Squadron code as well but I'm not sure if I'm imagining them there at this stage...

 

Any thoughts on the Invasion Stripes?

[Grey Beema]

I am coming up to the painting stage on my Mosquito XIII and I need to commit to a scheme.  The aircraft will be in the standard scheme of Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey.  I'm still undecided about the overspray of Night on the undersides but following Grahams advice it looks like I shouldn't add it.  

 

I am still not sure about Invasion Stripes on Night Fighters - did Night fighters have them or did they compromise the Camouflage too much?

 

Anyone able to shed anymore light...

 

@Seahawk any thoughts on MSG / Night undersides and Invasion Stripes June to Sept '44 for a 29 Sqn Mosquito XIII operating over Europe?

[Black Knight]

afair Night Fighters and Heavy Bombers were exempt from needing the stripes

[Grey Beema]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

afair Night Fighters and Heavy Bombers were exempt from needing the stripes

Thanks @Black Knight

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    I think it was to due to normal operational height of the aircraft 

 

  for example 

 

    23Sqn mossie intruder is here with stripes 

 

  just scroll down article a bit for YP-N photo 

 

  cheers 

     jerry 

  

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4950854

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by brewerjerry

[Black Knight]

Intruders wore stripes

But an Intruder was not a Night Fighter

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    ok, i can see home defence NF not having them 

   but i would have thought anything operating over france would have them on the lower surfaces for the twitchy a/a gunners 

 

     ducimus C&M mosquito book shows

 

264 Sqn mossie with stripes

 

418 Sqn mossie with stripes and black undersides

 

a 305 Sqn mossie with stripes

 

  cheers

    jerry 

Edited July 22, 2019 by brewerjerry

[Seahawk]

11 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

 

@Seahawk any thoughts on MSG / Night undersides and Invasion Stripes June to Sept '44 for a 29 Sqn Mosquito XIII operating over Europe?

Kind of you to think of me but can't add anything this time, I'm afraid.