dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I've got myself the new Special Hobby 1/72 Kittyhawk Mk III (P-40K) and I want to check the colours for the RNZAF one on the box art. The instructions say Foliage Green on top and Grey-Green (I think they mean RAF Sky Type S) underneath. Would this be correct? The Special Hobby P-40 kits are brilliant btw, everyone should make one! thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 This i think is one for @LDSModeller but AFAIK they stayed in US Colors, Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, though some P-40E's were in RAF specified colours Foliage Green is an Australian colour, not a RNZAF one. found this http://www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/RNZAF Paint.htm AH, here you go.... which had escaped my notice before so I've learned something new below is a colours shot of a P-40M posted mostly to show the RNZAF roundels are not light blue they are so often shown as.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Pete mossong’s site rnzaf.hobbyvista.com should give you all the info you need. If the above address won’t work just type Pete Mossong into your search engine of choice and the site will come up. HTH Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Follow this guy and you will get the right colours! https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235043254-rnzaf-p40k-in-rnzaf-pacific-scheme/ Edit - I see Troy beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: This i think is one for @LDSModeller but AFAIK they stayed in US Colors, Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, though some P-40E's were in RAF specified colours Foliage Green is an Australian colour, not a RNZAF one. found this http://www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/RNZAF Paint.htm AH, here you go.... which had escaped my notice before so I've learned something new below is a colours shot of a P-40M posted mostly to show the RNZAF roundels are not light blue they are so often shown as.... Yeah I know, which is why I thought it was odd that the instructions quote an RAAF colour for a RNZAF aircraft. I thought perhaps they might have meant RAF Dark Green or USAAF Olive Drab. The kit decals are in a darker Blue. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Mikemx said: I've got myself the new Special Hobby 1/72 Kittyhawk Mk III (P-40K) and I want to check the colours for the RNZAF one on the box art. The instructions say Foliage Green on top and Grey-Green (I think they mean RAF Sky Type S) underneath. Would this be correct? The Special Hobby P-40 kits are brilliant btw, everyone should make one! thanks Mike Hi Mike, The RNZAF tended more to use the US vernacular for their aircraft designation so P40E/P40K - M-N and not the RAF Mk numbers -why modellers and manufacturers insist on the RAF usage???? The rendition of the Special Hobby box top is a New Zealand based P40K and did not serve overseas (NZ3061) It would have arrived in New Zealand in US Olive Drab/Neutral Grey - Served with 2 OTU Ohakea (Central New Zealand). at some point in time it would have been given a re-paint (Note Not all P40's had this) The photo by Charles Darby in RNZAF the First Decade shows the aircraft (albeit a bit bent), certainly appearing in NZ Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey NZ Foliage Green certainly could be an Australian produced colour. BALM produced paint for Australia and New Zealand The NZ Sky Grey is not a Sky colour but as the name suggests a Grey - I checked with the RNZAF Museum on this. Whilst I have the greatest respect for Pete Mossong's site, bear in mind some of his comments on the P40 are now wrong - further more information from the RNZAF Museum now disqualifies some of his comments. Regards Alan 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, LDSModeller said: Hi Mike, The RNZAF tended more to use the US vernacular for their aircraft designation so P40E/P40K - M-N and not the RAF Mk numbers -why modellers and manufacturers insist on the RAF usage???? The rendition of the Special Hobby box top is a New Zealand based P40K and did not serve overseas (NZ3061) It would have arrived in New Zealand in US Olive Drab/Neutral Grey - Served with 2 OTU Ohakea (Central New Zealand). at some point in time it would have been given a re-paint (Note Not all P40's had this) The photo by Charles Darby in RNZAF the First Decade shows the aircraft (albeit a bit bent), certainly appearing in NZ Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey NZ Foliage Green certainly could be an Australian produced colour. BALM produced paint for Australia and New Zealand The NZ Sky Grey is not a Sky colour but as the name suggests a Grey - I checked with the RNZAF Museum on this. Whilst I have the greatest respect for Pete Mossong's site, bear in mind some of his comments on the P40 are now wrong - further more information from the RNZAF Museum now disqualifies some of his comments. Regards Alan Hi Alan I have Foliage Green and 2 different Sky Grey's in my paint selection. I've got Sky Grey seen on FAA aircraft and I have the Curtiss DuPont Sky Grey, which was used instead of RAF Sky Type S - would either of those be fairly close? It doesn't have to be spot on, as long as it's roughly similar! thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mikemx said: Hi Alan I have Foliage Green and 2 different Sky Grey's in my paint selection. I've got Sky Grey seen on FAA aircraft and I have the Curtiss DuPont Sky Grey, which was used instead of RAF Sky Type S - would either of those be fairly close? It doesn't have to be spot on, as long as it's roughly similar! thanks Mike The FAA Sky Gray (perhaps some lightened) would be closer than DuPont Sky Type S - Grey which is actually a Duck Egg Blue Colour Regards Alan 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 20 hours ago, LDSModeller said: The FAA Sky Gray (perhaps some lightened) would be closer than DuPont Sky Type S - Grey which is actually a Duck Egg Blue Colour Regards Alan Thanks for the help. I'll be going with Foliage Green and a slightly lightened Sky Grey then. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M. Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 The NZ Sky Grey was not a grey colour, but was a greyer version of SKY Type S. (NZ) Sky Grey: BALM S13-907. 33B/293 (Fs.35352 - RAF/FAA Sky Grey Bs.631). Although called a grey, it has a distinctly blue/green tone to it. Undersides on P-40, Ventura, Hudson, possibly Corsair, and code letters. My notes from my old (and unable to be updated website*). The colour is from a chip removed from P-40N NZ3220 'Gloria Lyons' which was repainted in the Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey scheme. The Foliage Green to all intents and purposes was the same as the Australian colour. Cheers, Pete M.🤔 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Pete M. said: My notes from my old (and unable to be updated website*). The colour is from a chip removed from P-40N NZ3220 'Gloria Lyons' which was repainted in the Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey scheme. Hi Pete, Nice to hear from you. Re the NZ Sky Grey - I had a interesting discussion with the RNZAF Museum last year about the actual colour and what records were held concerning the colour. The answer was nothing currently as to the mixing/ingredients or the actual hue (ie Blueish Greenish Grey per your comments). The colour described to me was more akin to a Light Grey - hence my comments - there are a lot of holes in some of these colours descriptions but hopefully more information will come forth Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 That makes it sound like the Curtiss DuPont Sky Grey might be a better likeness. I'll have to look when I get home. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, Mikemx said: That makes it sound like the Curtiss DuPont Sky Grey might be a better likeness. I'll have to look when I get home. thanks Mike Hi Mike, There is No such thing as DuPont Sky Grey - The correct term for the paint you are referring to, is Sky Type S - Grey which is a Duck Egg Blue Colour, such as on this P40E-1 Swatch in my collection BALM (British Australian Lead manufacturers) NZ Sky Grey is a completely different colour During WWII the RNZAF did have a Duck Egg Blue colour, known as NZ Duck Egg Blue it was not a Grey colour, and closer to DuPont Sky Type S - Grey than NZ Sky Grey Regards Alan 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, LDSModeller said: Hi Mike, There is No such thing as DuPont Sky Grey - The correct term for the paint you are referring to, is Sky Type S - Grey which is a Duck Egg Blue Colour, such as on this P40E-1 Swatch in my collection BALM (British Australian Lead manufacturers) NZ Sky Grey is a completely different colour During WWII the RNZAF did have a Duck Egg Blue colour, known as NZ Duck Egg Blue it was not a Grey colour, and closer to DuPont Sky Type S - Grey than NZ Sky Grey Regards Alan It's the colour Curtiss used instead of Sky Type S. I've heard it described as like Sky Type S but more Grey. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mikemx said: It's the colour Curtiss used instead of Sky Type S. I've heard it described as like Sky Type S but more Grey. thanks Mike Hi Mike, My paint Swatch above, the lower colour is DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey the real actual colour. - As you can see there is nothing Grey about it - The Grey suffix was added by DuPont, quite possibly to differentiate between the RAF and US versions and possibly referring to it's production process, but the Colour is a Pale Blue with a greenish tinge Unfortunately lots of Supposed Experts who have never actually seen the colour will tell you its grey and again unfortunately unsuspecting modellers take these experts at their word - been there done that Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, LDSModeller said: Hi Mike, My paint Swatch above, the lower colour is DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey the real actual colour. - As you can see there is nothing Grey about it - The Grey suffix was added by DuPont, quite possibly to differentiate between the RAF and US versions and possibly referring to it's production process, but the Colour is a Pale Blue with a greenish tinge Unfortunately lots of Supposed Experts who have never actually seen the colour will tell you its grey and again unfortunately unsuspecting modellers take these experts at their word - been there done that Regards Alan Well that's all very confusing. It sounds like the kit painting guide is correct then. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mikemx said: Well that's all very confusing. It sounds like the kit painting guide is correct then. thanks Mike Hi Mike, Just remember your mode,l your choice - just bear in mind that there are also "Supposed" experts who supply these manufacturers with dud information, because their Mum's cousin's half brother twice removed read it some where too. Some times they also use outdated information from books published eons ago. When Special Hobby initially posted this kit, they had the Box Top art depicting this particular aircraft having just shot down a Japanese Aircraft - NZ3061 (as I said in my initial post) AFAIK never served overseas - They also had OTU markings on the box art which RNZAF aircraft never wore overseas. On the Special Hobby section here on Britmodeller, I posted my above comments, Petr from Special Hobby quoted the Charles Darby book RNZAF the First Decade - Yes there is a photo of this aircraft in the book, the Special Hobby folks simply made the assumption that this aircraft served overseas and you can read it in their blurb on the markings sheet in the kit. It's not the first time Special Hobby have done this, nor I expect the last. Decal manufacturers do it to - check out my comments on this thread I posted last year When I have done as much research on a model as I can and there are still unanswered questions, I simply use this statement - "This is My Take" on this aircraft scheme. Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, LDSModeller said: Hi Mike, Just remember your mode,l your choice - just bear in mind that there are also "Supposed" experts who supply these manufacturers with dud information, because their Mum's cousin's half brother twice removed read it some where too. Some times they also use outdated information from books published eons ago. When Special Hobby initially posted this kit, they had the Box Top art depicting this particular aircraft having just shot down a Japanese Aircraft - NZ3061 (as I said in my initial post) AFAIK never served overseas - They also had OTU markings on the box art which RNZAF aircraft never wore overseas. On the Special Hobby section here on Britmodeller, I posted my above comments, Petr from Special Hobby quoted the Charles Darby book RNZAF the First Decade - Yes there is a photo of this aircraft in the book, the Special Hobby folks simply made the assumption that this aircraft served overseas and you can read it in their blurb on the markings sheet in the kit. It's not the first time Special Hobby have done this, nor I expect the last. Decal manufacturers do it to - check out my comments on this thread I posted last year When I have done as much research on a model as I can and there are still unanswered questions, I simply use this statement - "This is My Take" on this aircraft scheme. Regards Alan That then begs the question, are the markings correct in the kit? The history of the actual aircraft is not really important to me, I just wanted a model of a RNZAF P-40 in these colours. thanks Mike Edited January 11, 2019 by Mikemx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, Mikemx said: That then begs the question, are the markings correct in the kit? The history of the actual aircraft is not really important to me, I just wanted a model of a RNZAF P-40 in these colours. thanks Mike Hi Mike, Yes, I can confirm the markings are correct - The Photo in Darby's book, of NZ3061 are the same as the kit depicts. The Roundel colours appear a bit light in the Blue spectrum - again another one of these STUPID MYTHS (sorry for shouting -just annoys me) that Modellers/Kit/Decal manufacturers seem to think that ALL RNZAF aircraft had faded markings (rant over) New Zealand has a Temperate Climate - Aircraft and markings don't fade like they do in the more Northerly SW Pacific Operational areas Regards Alan 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 No worries. I think the roundels in the kit look fairly dark to me but I don't know if they are dark enough. They are certainly darker than on the box art. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 I’m considering Gibson’s Kittyhawk 1a for the p-40 STGB, what colours should I use? US dupont approximates or raf camo and sky/sky-grey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, PhantomBigStu said: I’m considering Gibson’s Kittyhawk 1a for the p-40 STGB, what colours should I use? US dupont approximates or raf camo and sky/sky-grey? Hi Stu, Unfortunately the author of the above got things wrong date wise. By the date stated above October 1942, NZ3040 was serving with 2 OTU, Ohakea, code FE-A and had a mid air with a Hawker Hind 23 October 1942 NZ3040 did serve with 15 Squadron Whenuapai (phonetics Fen-nu-a-pie) allocated June 1942 Colour wise the aircraft wore DuPont colours of Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky (Sky being Duck Egg Blue not grey/gray), Codes being Sky. Serials Black 8inch Cockpit colour I would state a Blue/Green Colour similar to this Hudson interior colour (Photo use permission of NR Mines) Seat harness - Sutton Harness Photo link to NZ3040 NZ3040 Roundels in US DuPont Colours, Insignia Blue/White/ Red/Yellow Hope that helps? Regards Alan Edited September 10, 2019 by LDSModeller 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 ThanksLDS now to remember what I used on my DuPont tomahawk last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kiker Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) Hi all, I must admit to a certain amount of confusion based on a couple of readings of this thread. I have been planning on doing a P-40K-15 in operational markings for a long time. I've saved off all of Pete Mossong's history and markings information and had the opportunity to discuss it with him. For mid-1943, all that information indicated that P-40K's and early M's were Dark Earth, Dark Green over Sky - these were all the U.S. equivalent paints (not RAF), with a wavy demarcation between the upper and lower colours. My main point of confusion here is with the Dark Earth (equivalent); this discussion is saying to me that on these a/c, the dark earth is incorrect for the time frame and was replaced by the NZ Blue. So if the Dark Earth thought to have been on this group of a/c in mid-1943 is wrong, what data is the new interpretation based on? And if I've missed the point entirely, please enlighten me! Thanks for any light you all can shed, Jim Edited September 11, 2019 by Jim Kiker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jim Kiker said: must admit to a certain amount of confusion based on a couple of readings of this thread. I have been planning on doing a P-40K-15 in operational markings for a long time. I've saved off all of Pete Mossong's history and markings information and had the opportunity to discuss it with him. For mid-1942, all that information indicated that P-40K's and early M's were Dark Earth, Dark Green over Sky - these were all the U.S. equivalent paints (not RAF), with a wavy demarcation between the upper and lower colours. My main point of confusion here is with the Dark Earth (equivalent); this discussion is saying to me that on these a/c, the dark earth is incorrect for the time frame and was replaced by the NZ Blue. So if the Dark Earth thought to have been on this group of a/c in mid-1942 is wrong, what data is the new interpretation based on? And if I've missed the point entirely, please enlighten me! Thanks for any light you all can shed, Jim The thoughts on the P40K's in the RAF TLS Scheme is based on Charles Darby's interpretation. we know know some of Charles's P40 info is wrong/debunked - I have met Charles Darby too. If you look at photos of the P40K's, they are painted in the RAF Type B Scheme which was never used on any P40's supplied to RAF orders, that I am aware of - None also that I am aware of, had "Scalloped" edging of the undersides paint. There is a photo of a P40K which has 1/2 the Starboard wing showing the New Zealand applied paint peeling off exposing the paint underneath which looks very much like US Neutral Grey. An order came through prior to the departure of the P40K to the Operational areas to be painted in the RNZAF Pacific Scheme. (This information came way later than Pete's site's information) If the K's had arrived in the RAF TLS Scheme, they would not have been painted in the B scheme (makes no practical sense). If the K's had arrived in US OD/NG, then application of a the NZ Sea Blue Grey over the OD using the B Scheme makes sense, then adding the Duck Egg Blue/Sky hence the "Scalloped" Edging. This is a model I built last year for the Pacific GB in the scheme I described above Regards Alan Edited September 11, 2019 by LDSModeller 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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