christian Boehm Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Hello all Blenheim Fans I shared messages several weeks ago on some Airfix Blenheim (1/72) inaccuracies . Other important remarks will follow. But now I am on an upper camouflage problem with the Mk.IF I have elected; it’s the 229 squadron RE°P plane for which I own the Xtradecals sheet. It’s usually known that the “A scheme” was applied on even serial planes and the “B Scheme” on the odd ones. RE°P is called having the K7181 ( so odd) serial and the B scheme ( as it has to be) is drawn on the Xtra profile, as on page 83 of the recent excellent ((Red Kite Ed) book from Alan Price. See drawing1 below. See drawing 2 below. But several, quite not always perfect quality, photos exist of that plane, often together with others (unknown serial) in flight. So see here photo 1 from Cam&Markings n°7 And see 3 more photos in A. Price book: photo 1 photo 2 photo 3 In my opinion, studying the photos, RE°P wears the not the B but the “A scheme”…. So what’s the truth ? is the serial false ? you can read in A. Price’s book on page 82 the sentence “RE-P, reputed to be K7181” …. And actually you can’t see clearly its serial on any photo What would you do at my place ? Thanks a lot Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I wonder if there was a second RE•P with an even serial number despite what the book says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 thanks fubar but so … you would paint it as suggested on the BW photos ( A scheme seems obvious ) not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Paint the aircraft as it is in the photos not the Profile. If the serial is wrong then it is wrong, but easier to correct later. However the link between the last digit and the pattern was not absolute. It has been said that it was the first aircraft in a production batch not necessarily the odd digit that received the Type A pattern, I don't know how that bears out with these Blenheims. Perhaps finding photos of examples with nearby serials might help. The connection K7191/P is in Fighter Squadrons of the RAF, by JR Rawlings, which predates the other sources. They presumably copied it. I don't know why Price cast any doubt: perhaps just because he, like us, cannot read it on the photos. Rawlings only quotes one other serial link for 229 Blenheim. namely K7074/A. Another 229/P is certainly possible but as the unit only had them for just over four months, perhaps it is less likely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Your words soung good Graham You're always almost an encyclopedy !of the RAF !! I just sprayed my kit dk earth this evening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Note the slightly darker ailerons on RE-P. Not night - maybe Sky? They are deflected in lower picture but not in others. There were instructions about not painting them when the Night/White scheme came in. I only know about it because of my own Blenheim build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Lindekens Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I would agree with Graham and say to go by a photo of the subject aircraft. As said the A and B schemes were initially to be applied to alternate aircraft on the production line (A for even serials, B for uneven serials) but I recall having read somewhere (can't recall the source, sorry!) that in the long run most aircraft manufacturers stuck to one of either schemes to keep things simple. I checked Blenheim side views in several books and one does encounter the occasional even serial in the B scheme or vice versa. One specific Blenheim I've been researching for quite some time, Mk IV serial T2254 clearly sports the B scheme in one of the photos I have. Cheers, Walter OK, just found that source! On Target Special No2 - Britain Alone - June 1940 to December 1941, by Paul Lucas. Quote By the time DTD Technical Circular No 144 was issued, the practice of applying the A and B mirror image disruptive schemes to the upper surfaces had been discontinued. This seems to have begun as early as January 1941. Aircraft manufacturers were asked to choose either one or the other, and to apply the same disruptive scheme to every aircraft from that point on. Most manufacturers seem to have chosen the A scheme, but some manufacturers chose the B scheme. Armstrong Whitworth are known to have chosen the B scheme which they applied to every Whitley built from January 1941 onwards. Bristols appear to have chosen the B scheme for application to all Beaufighters when the day flying camouvlage was re-introduced circa January 1941, the brief period following the latter part of 1940 during which Beaufighters were delivered in primer. Unquote The above doesn't really help Christian of course as his Mk I is depicted as in 1940... anyway, should be of interest :). Edited January 8, 2019 by Walter Lindekens Found the source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Thanks Walter Yes it doesn't bring certitudes but it's often the case in ou researches , isn't it ? Two of our interlocutors have clearly showed the rule variations of serials attributions The thing is it brings probability of reality and it reassures us about our weak convictions To finish I read the RE-P (K7181 or not ?) was shot down late 1940 by the italians in the Mediteranean theater I as well found the first 1940 Mk.IF serie buiklding finished with the K7182 Why the RE-P could not be the K7182 ? Nobody will be able to read clearly the serial on all these shots. thanks to all christian (from France's IPMS) Ps : I will next be back with important corrections on the Airfix kit because the nacelles are really false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Having tracked down Air Britain's The K File (which had gone wandering from its proper place on the shelves) I find that there is doubt about K7181 being RE.P because both it and K7182 went to Aboukir in 1938. RE.P was certainly not lost to the Italians in late 1940, because 229 had given up its Blenheims long before that. However K7181 was lost in action in July 1941, probably when with 30 Sq although this serial does not appear in the squadrons records. From a quick look, I can't find any of the Kxxxx Blenheims being fighters, though I could have missed a few, but that does exclude K7074 which was written off after 11 months with 139 Sq. K7182 was indeed the last Blenheim I of that block, but it ended in early 1938. I have a feeling that is before the fighter modifications, but would need to do a bit more reading. There are already a number of threads dealing with the Bolingbroke nacelles on the Airfix kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I've just done a quick scan of the Blenheim section of the Air Britain book on K-serialled aircraft. The Blenheim range is K7033 to K7182. I haven't spotted a single reference to any fighter conversions in that batch, or a single reference to 229 Sq. The opening blurb does say, "Few of the K-series Blenheims saw combat service, the main exceptions being 30 Squadron's in the Middle East, the K-serial Blenheims in the UK going to training units." K7181 is recorded as one of those 30 Sq aircraft, being erected at Aboukir Egypt on 19/4/38, delivered to 30 Sq and lost in action 13/7/40. K7074 (also mentioned by Rawlings as a 229 Sq aircraft) was written off as early as 27/7/38. I suggest Rawlings is just plain wrong this time: even the best authors are at the mercy of their sources - we should not be astonished at the occasional error but grateful that they got so much right. Personally I would follow the camo pattern in the photographs and omit the serial altogether. It can be added later if more definite info emerges later. And it was not unknown for serials to be painted out in the very early wartime period anyway. Edit: SNAP! Edited January 9, 2019 by Seahawk Details of loss of K7181 corrected: see next post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Not quite snap - it was K7182 that force-landed near LG222. Incidentally, K7181 was coded X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) The 229 Squadron Operations Record Books don't list many K-serialled Blenheims and K7181 is not one of them. From December 1939 to March 1940 only L-serialled aircraft are recorded as having been used on operations. Sadly the 229 ORBs generally only list serials, not individual aircraft letters. In January 1940 the squadron was visited by the press and 3 aircraft, listed as L8692, L1128 and L8722, gave demonstrations. I wonder if these might be the three which appear in the photographs? Edited January 9, 2019 by Ivor Ramsden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 By George, I think he's got it! However, that doesn't help us as to which is which. I can understand one or more K serial bombers being initially on 229 strength as conversion aircraft. Not being listed on operations makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian Boehm Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/8/2019 at 11:50 PM, Graham Boak said: There are already a number of threads dealing with the Bolingbroke nacelles on the Airfix kit. Hi Graham and all Yes you're right about the nacelle although these of the kit are not more enough correct for the Bolingbroke ones I had long exchanges in december on hyperscale following a discussion started in 2015 But I thought it's better to start a new topic apart from this cam-discussion I will call it : "New Airfix 72 Blenheim : a real progress but below some quality hopes ; a lot to do…" About some things, I remember you were at the post for the so called "chin-turrett" construction Read you soon ! Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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