GrahamB Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Happy New Year! Finally couldn't resist ordering the VALOM DH.91 Albatros - such a beautiful aircraft. I'm wanting to do one of the mail-planes impressed into service with 271 Squadron RAF, ex G-AEVW 'Franklin", and used on the Preston-Iceland route. as BJ-W/AX904. The better of some images of this aircraft show it with a highly repainted/retouched scheme on upper surfaces, and with what I assume are Medium Sea Grey codes and the name Franklin still in the BOAC blue? More importantly, would this aircraft be in the Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey) with perhaps Sky (or a duck-egg blue-green substitute) as it was mostly flying over water, or did it retain a previous Temperate Land Scheme finish (Dark Earth/Dark Green)? Perhaps impossible to tell. Cheers GrahamB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The tones suggest Dark Green and Dark Earth upper surfaces, which would be correct for RAF Transport at that time. Undersides - could be yellow, could be Sky. I suspect 'Franklin was in yellow, looks too light to be BOAC blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamB Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Thanks Dave, I probably go along with the DE/DG combination too - but have some patches showing repaints. Sky/"Duck-egg Green/blue" for the undersides too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Thinking Franklin might be the same grey as the codes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 These 2 aircraft were impressed in September 1940 to operate a UK-Iceland route: both were out of service by the end of April 1942. For most of their service their colours ought to have been governed by AMO A.926/40 of 12 Dec 40 which stipulates Dark Earth and Dark Green for the upper surfaces (para 5) and Yellow for the undersurfaces (para 6.(ii)b "[Undersurfaces of] non-operational aircraft are to be coloured yellow" (with exceptions for TT, AA CoOp, target, ambulance and prototype/experimental aircraft)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Civil aircraft have often been touted as having Aluminium undersides rather than Yellow. I can't quite a source but it seems more likely. Sky is very unlikely as this did not appear in use until well after the adoption of camouflage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 29 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Civil aircraft have often been touted as having Aluminium undersides rather than Yellow. I can't quite a source but it seems more likely. Sky is very unlikely as this did not appear in use until well after the adoption of camouflage. Civil were aluminium but these were service aircraft. What I don't have to hand is the AMO for transports before Dec 40 (As impressed in Sept) - my own thought is it should be Yellow, but the tone is not disimilar to Sky (I have often noticed a different appearance between roundel yellow and underside 'yellow', particularly on large aircraft) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Kay Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I have to say I’ve been wondering about just this issue for my own Albatross. I’m hoping to build the same aircraft as the OP. I know officially it was supposed to be yellow underneath. Like Dave I wonder if they retained the pre-impressed silver/aluminium, or did receive a coat of Sky. I wonder if we’ll ever get a definitive answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamB Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Quite a discussion. I can except the possibility of yellow undersides for non-op aircraft flying in UK skies, but surely not for a military aircraft operating out of the UK and where the possibility of encountering Luftwaffe aircraft (e.g. from of Norway) was quite high. In the photos I would also say that the yellow of the fuselage roundel is quite brighter than the under-surfaces. As for timing, since 'Franklin' was impressed in September 1940 and lasted until 1942, this fits well with the introduction of Sky (or substitutes). - and time for repaints. Cheers GrahamB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I admit the photos don't scream "yellow" to me either (though I am aware of the pitfalls of interpreting B/W photos). In which case I find it easier to accept aluminium undersides (merely the retention of the previous finish) than use of a new colour not prescribed for such aircraft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I can’t see aluminium (painted or bare metal) in those pics. There is evidence of RAF communications and light aircraft operating overseas and in combat zones with yellow undersides later in the war. Need to find what the official scheme for transports was circa August/Sept 1940! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 It wouldn't be bare metal, and certainly doesn't look like it. However, there is a reasonable contrast in at least one photo between the underside and the Yellow of the roundel. In his little booklet for PSL, Mike Bowyer writes of camouflaged light communications aircraft (the heaviest he mentions is the DH89) initially retaining their silver undersides, but Yellow undersides becoming standard after the outbreak of war. He does add that from August 1940 troop carriers and bomber transports should have Sky undersides, but that only a handful of aircraft were affected, mainly Bombays. He also states that in this case the underside colour came halfway up the fuselage - which would seem a little earlier as a general habit, but he quotes November 7th 1940 as the date for the introduction of the low demarcation on trainers. However I read this, it does seem to be bouncing around the DH91s without actually pinning them down. British Aviation Colours doesn't start until December 1940, but there is the "everything Yellow except...". The exceptions do not include civilian aircraft used as transports, but does include "troop carriers", in line with Bowyer. So if we take "troop carriers" as being the period term for transports, as I think we should, then the undersides of the DH91s will have been Sky. Which is what GrahamB said in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Swindell Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Interesting debate on the colours, I'm also contemplating a similar model. Don't forget that this is the mailplane version so will need some conversion work for accuracy. Differences inclde differennt cockpit layout and windows, different cabin laayout with different windows and doors, and different wing root fairings off the top of my head for starters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamB Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 Nice photo on the wwiiarchives.net site of BJ-W/Franklin/AX904 from below. Underside darker than the yellow of roundel and similar to MSG (Sky had similar reflectance?); also good view of split flaps and the fuselage door behind the W code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 52 minutes ago, GrahamB said: Nice photo on the wwiiarchives.net site of BJ-W/Franklin/AX904 from below. Underside darker than the yellow of roundel and similar to MSG (Sky had similar reflectance?); also good view of split flaps and the fuselage door behind the W code. MSG was quoted to have a reflectivity of 26% while Sky had 43%. Quite a difference. Yellow had 57%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamB Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 Hi Giorgio, Ah yes, must have been thinking of something else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 11 hours ago, Graham Boak said: British Aviation Colours doesn't start until December 1940, but there is the "everything Yellow except...". The exceptions do not include civilian aircraft used as transports, but does include "troop carriers", in line with Bowyer. So if we take "troop carriers" as being the period term for transports, as I think we should, then the undersides of the DH91s will have been Sky. Ah, yes: I had overlooked the inclusion of "troop carriers" under "operational aircraft" in A.926/40 (para 6.ii.a). Calling a courier service to Iceland troop carrying stretches it a bit for me but who knows what decision was made in 1940. And, further along in A.926/40 (para 9.iv) it states that "non-operational aircraft with yellow undersides, and ambulance aircraft, are to carry red, white and blue roundels on the undersides of the wingtips" so no underwing roundels = no underside yellow? 12 hours ago, Dave Fleming said: Need to find what the official scheme for transports was circa August/Sept 1940! Seems like we need some or all of AMOs A.154/39, A.298/39 and A.520/39, the documents cancelled in A.926/40. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seahawk said: Ah, yes: I had overlooked the inclusion of "troop carriers" under "operational aircraft" in A.926/40 (para 6.ii.a). Calling a courier service to Iceland troop carrying stretches it a bit for me but who knows what decision was made in 1940. That might be down to the fact that 'transport' aircraft didn't really exist in the RAF prior to WW2 - you had bomber/transports such as the Bombay, and 'Troop Carriers' like the Vernon and Victoria. It's interesting not just in terms of the DH91s, but also aircraft like the impressed HP42s, Fokker 5AT and HP 'Sparrows' (In the latter case, their use preceeds the introduction of Sky, and the underside of at least one aircraft does resemble aluminium) Edited January 9, 2019 by Dave Fleming 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Isn't there a colour photo confirming that the HP42s (or at least one of them) had yellow undersides (demarcation halfway down the fuselage IIRC)? The Ford 5-AT I have in build somewhere will be X5000, the sole RAF example once I can locate some wheel spats. I think there's only one photo of her in camouflage, after her terminal crash in September 1940. It's never entered my head that her underside was not Yellow - which of course proves precisely nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Not seen the HP42 pic! It occured to me that one reason you might want to paint an Albatross yellow is to avoid confusion with a Fw200! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I'm sure someone on here built an HP42 and finished it in DG/DE/Yellow a while back. Very impressive. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Sky wasn't introduced until August for "troop carriers", which could well make yellow undersides quite correct for the Ford and the HP42 until then. How quickly such earlier types were repainted is perhaps an open question, but it wouldn't apply to the DH.91 which wasn't impressed before then. Given the date of the Ford's crash, we can rule out Sky anyway. I don't recall seeing a Sparrow with high (mid) demarcation. Harrow yes. But this thread is drifting away from the Albatross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 13 hours ago, GrahamB said: Nice photo on the wwiiarchives.net site of BJ-W/Franklin/AX904 from below. Do you have a link to that Graham, I couldn't find it when I tried? I'm not sure if it will help at all but this ebay auction has a clearer version of the photo @Dave Fleming posted above. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamB Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) Hi Steve, here's the link - it was actually on Flikr. Could be Aluminium, could be Sky/proxies, not yellow undersides? NO roundels under the wings. Edited January 9, 2019 by GrahamB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 The size of the fin flashes would point to earlier than September. Would they have been carried during civilian operations? By the way, I know of no suitable airfield at Preston. Prestwick seems more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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