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Wellington III Waist Guns


Crimea River

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Happy 2019 to all!

 

The parts included in my Trumpeter Wellington Mk III kit shown below peaked my interest. They are the mid gun mounts that are to be added to the interior of each side. The single .303 is to be mounted between the "goal posts" and the barrel pokes through an opening near the back of the clear panel.

 

19010601-jpg.524705

 

What peaked my interest is the offset handles and the drum-shaped bits over them. It suggests to me that perhaps each waist gun was operated from a position not directly behind the gun itself but rather through some form of a mechanical linkage with the gunner off to the side. Looking on the net, I found nothing that described this setup and the best picture that I could find of this arrangement was the one below. However, it's not obvious to me that the guns are in place, though ammo boxes and what would seem to be spent cartridge bags can be seen. 

 

 Ward15.jpg

 

Would anyone be able to provide a better picture or drawing/sketch of this setup and advise the nature of the operation of these guns? Do the handles in fact operate the guns and are the "drums" over them some sort of gun sight or are they associated with the ammo feed somehow?

 

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

 

Thanks

 

Andy

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Andy,

 

I don't see that the guns are fitted to either of the mounts in the waist positions;  the caption that was with the original photo stated that the Wimpy was on a search mission and the crewman with the Aldis lamp was signaling to a ship, so probably not a combat mission requiring the guns to be mounted; I didn't see any indication in the photo that the guns themselves were stored on racks to be mounted as needed. I couldn't find any photos that showed the waist gun position/mounts on a Wimpy, and I'm not  well-versed on them, so I can't help you with a photo or description regarding what they would look like in their mounts. Any reflector or ring sight would have to be attached to the gun itself. Maybe @Graham Boak or @tonyot would be a better resource.

Mike

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Hi

    To me it looks like both guns are there in the photo, crewmember on port side is leaning on one, and stbd gun is pointing skywards 

    cheers 

       jerry

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Jerry,

 

I think I see what you mean. After looking again and reading your post, it appears that the weapon on the RH side of the photo is not deployed, but is stowed horizontally. The weapon on the LH side of the photo does appear to be deployed and is angled upwards. What is puzzling is that I don't see that either gun has its ammo belt  loaded, as I can't see any evidence of the cartridge belts leading from the ammo cans on either side of the fuselage to its  gun. In addition, it appears that the canvas bags used to collect expended cases and links  are not fitted to the same side of each gun; could it be that the fired cases are expelled from the bottom of the receiver?  It's also  hard for me to tell if the windows are open or shut- they do not seem to be open- if they are, where are the window panels stowed? Glad I'm not building a Wimpy!

Mike

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I’ve had a quick look in British Aircraft Armament vol 1 RAF gun turrets and the nearest is the Nash & Thomson FN55 twin .303” mount that was fitted in Coastal Command Liberators. The gunner using it sat alongside the guns but it had a V shaped handle and not the handlebar arrangement seen here. The end of chapter summary however lists an FN 56 mount with a single .303 Browning and 500 RPG but no photos or idea of usage. It also lists a couple of 0.5” beam mounts that never made production thereby suggesting that the FN56 did.

I can’t make out how many guns in each mount in the photo but there are 3 ammo boxes each side that seem very similar to those of the FN55. But then again they were probably standard eqpt.

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Just found a ref on Google from Bomber Harris: Sir Arthur Harris’s dispatches on war operations that Wellingtons in Bomber Command in May 1942 were equipped with FN56 beam gun mounts with a single .303 and that they were no longer an operational requirement as of May 1944.

Not sure it helps modelling it but at least we now know exactly what to look for.

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Thanks Ewen and Jerry. The gun is a single mount on each side and it is helpful to know that it is a FN56. I don't think the picture shows 3 ammo boxes but rather one each side. What appear to be separations are stiffening ribs in my opinion.

 

I too am looking at the picture posted by Jerry on a cell phone and there is not much seen it I will take a closer look later.

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Many Liberator Mk.III`s had a similar waist gun arrangement but with offset twin .303in Brownings. 

 

I built up a Liberator setup here in this WIP,..... which includes a pic of the Lib guns;

Cheers

          Tony

 

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Thanks Tony. Similar setup indeed and it confirms the offset operation concept. I wonder what the drum shaped objects are that are above the handles on my kit parts. Nothing there looks like a gun sight if there was one. Unfortunately, the pic of the twin mount in the Liberator doesn't show the details on the gunner's side.

 

BTW, I'm thinking that the mount parts I posted would be painted interior grey/green. Any objections?

Edited by Crimea River
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9 hours ago, Crimea River said:

Thanks Tony. Similar setup indeed and it confirms the offset operation concept. I wonder what the drum shaped objects are that are above the handles on my kit parts. Nothing there looks like a gun sight if there was one. Unfortunately, the pic of the twin mount in the Liberator doesn't show the details on the gunner's side.

 

BTW, I'm thinking that the mount parts I posted would be painted interior grey/green. Any objections?

No worries mate,....... re the colours,... Interior Grey Green or Silver,..... either one should be OK?

All the best,

                   Tony

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  • 2 weeks later...

A small update for those interested. Continued discussion on this elsewhere has led me to conclude that the two mystery boxes moulded into the mount are supposed to represent a hooded gun sight mounted on its side. Here are pics of the sight in question:

 

dscf0001-9-jpg.523507

 

dscf0002-6-jpg.523508

 

Looking closely at the period pic in post #1 again, you can see that the knob and power connection in that photo coincide with those on the above sight. It appears that Trumpeter have modeled this sight without the connection between the light box and reflector hood.  

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I had a look into this a while ago when I was interested into the armament of the Wellington, I came across this drawing which might help...

pgoranson11356.jpg

 

By Paul Goranson, a WWII RCAF war artist.

 

I also found this image, although rather small:

Wellington_interior_1.jpg

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Yep, thanks for that. Came across those as well during my extensive searches. I have one more possibility to check and that is a Frazer-Nash parts manual that I have access to at a local museum. It may or may not address the FN-56 but if I find any more I will post here.

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