Tuskegee Cobras

[KRK4m]

Following some urban legend the 332nd FG Airacobras are always pictured in standard OD/NG camouflage. It is also said that the famous red-painted tails were introduced on the razorback P-47Ds flown by the Group in the summer of 1944. However yesterday I came across two pictures of the 332nd Group P-39s portrayed in March or April 1944 on the Montecorvino airfield (some 10 miles/15km off Salerno).

 

http://lestweforget.hamptonu.edu/page.cfm?uuid=9FEC33AA-CC00-30F3-45DA1E80EE4332CC

 

The vertical fin of 44-3022 (image 10/14) looks lighter than the fuselage tail - moreover there's a darker area surrounding last two yellow digits on the rudder. Could it mean that the whole vertical tail (or at least the rudder) was painted red already on the Tuskegee P-39s?  And then came another picture (image 13/14) from the same airfield - remnants of yellow band are visible between the fuselage insignia and tail as is the two digit (almost unreadable) tactical number on the cockpit door. But there is NO SERIAL on the freshly-painted fin while some digits ("72" can be clearly read) are visible under the tailplane. Do you mean such a layout possible for the USAAF plane in Italy?

Cheers

Michael 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by KRK4m

[KRK4m]

Almost three years have passed without my questions being answered - maybe the topic is not worth talking about.

But yesterday looking at the photo 13/14 of this package http://lestweforget.hamptonu.edu/page.cfm?uuid=9FEC33AA-CC00-30F3-45DA1E80EE4332CC   I had a crazy thought.

Do you think it's possible that the Cobra pictured in April 1944 near Salerno was the ex-RAF P-400 ??? In this case, the serial placed under the tailplane doesn't look strange at all. Two MG barrels protruding from the wing leading edge certainly exclude the P-39Q option. And all other Cobras look the same.

Anyway do you think it should wear the Dupont-modified RAF TLS ? There are even traces of the Sky fuselage band! Interesting option for the 1944 MTO USAAF plane, isn't it?      

If my Eyeball 1.1 scanner is right the serial looks like either BW or BX172. 

Cheers

Michael         

Edited December 14, 2021 by KRK4m

[gingerbob]

I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing this first time around.  The photos you indicated are not terribly convincing to me, but a search for "332nd FG P-39" (images) turned up a diecast and a profile with red tails, so perhaps it isn't such a novel idea?

 

bob

[Troy Smith]

30 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

"332nd FG P-39" (images) turned up a diecast and a profile with red tails, so perhaps it isn't such a novel idea?

Perhaps one for @Dana Bell ?

 

3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

 

Do you think it's possible that the Cobra pictured in April 1944 near Salerno was the ex-RAF P-400 ???

Doubtful.  AFAIK, the few ex RAF contract P-400's ended up in the Pacific.   

3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Anyway do you think it should wear the Dupont-modified RAF TLS ?

this has a sweep up of 'sky' under the tailfin. Very distinctive pattern

3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

There are even traces of the Sky fuselage band!

These were applied in Britain, and the ones that had these got repainted into DFS, as shown in the colour pics of 601 Sq, as well as 'sky' patches behind stencil on the nose.

EX RAF VVS Airacobras are seen with both these features.  

I can find example of these if you wish, but no time right now.

HTH

[KRK4m]

14 hours ago, gingerbob said:

I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing this first time around.  The photos you indicated are not terribly convincing to me, but a search for "332nd FG P-39" (images) turned up a diecast and a profile with red tails, so perhaps it isn't such a novel idea?

 

The diecast and profiles you mention (#151 and 152 on the nose) refer to the older P-39s used by the Tuskegee men during their training period in the USA. On the other hand, the well-known "Quanto Costa?" and all other P-39Qs flown by them operationally in Italy are always displayed with an OD tail. It does make a difference, I am trying to explore it here.  

 

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

1. Perhaps one for @Dana Bell ?

2. Doubtful.  AFAIK, the few ex-RAF contract P-400's ended up in the Pacific.   

3. This has a sweep up of 'sky' under the tailfin. Very distinctive pattern

4. These were applied in Britain, and the ones that had these got repainted into DFS, as shown in the colour pics of 601 Sq, as well as 'sky' patches behind stencil on the nose. Ex-RAF VVS Airacobras are seen with both these features.  

5. I can find example of these if you wish, but no time right now.

1. Hope Dana sees this topic :)

2. Doubtful for me too, although the lack of proof cannot be a proof of the lack

3. You're right - here the rear of the fuselage is dark, like in DFS painted RAF machines. Moreover, the serial is not black ...

4. Ditto

5. I have many pictures of the VVS P-400 so there's no need to bother you like that

Cheers

Michael

[Smudge]

17 hours ago, KRK4m said:

............................ maybe the topic is not worth talking about.     

 

No, definitely worth talking about. Tuskegee airmen very interesting subject.

 

Unfortunately I don't think anyone can say with any confidence that their P-39's had red tails. The P-39's they had were apparently quite well used (polite description). I think the irregularities seen in the photographs you mention just bear this out. Airframe parts swapped out and repairs painted over, plus signs of previous units markings etc. Also the poor quality of the images doesn't help.

 

Thanks for posing the question. I'll follow along and maybe something will turn up 

[72modeler]

A very interesting P-39 photo! For what it's worth, here are my observations:

• Ain't it fun trying to decipher black and white photos?
• If you put a straightedge along the bottom of the '22' on the rudder, it does not line up with the '430' on the fin, which leads me to believe that this part of the serial was repainted- see the next bullet
• Clearly the '22' has been masked, leaving the original OD that part of the serial was painted upon; IIRC, and @Graham Boak will know, fabric control surfaces were generally not  painted over, as this upset the balance of the control surface. I think this lends credence to the rudder being painted red, as the rest of the rudder (and fin) look much lighter than the surrounding OD. Perhaps painting the rudder red and repainting that part of the serial that was on the rudder was too  much for proper balance, and thus was masked around? When the fin was painted red, if indeed it was, then there was no balance issue with which to contend, so the serial was repainted yellow, but was misaligned. The fin looks to be the same lighter tone as the rudder, and you can see the small dorsal fin fairing also has the same tone, much like the red 'sweep' that was visible on the 322nd's Mustang fins/rudders when they were painted red.
• The horizontal stab and elevator appear to have been painted red as well.

 

From written accounts I found, one squadron of the 322nd was flying P-40's and the other three were flying P-39's on March, 1944, but they were soon replaced with P-47's and then P-51's. Depending upon when the photo you mentioned was taken, maybe it was a squadron 'hack' that was kept around, much like the 4th FG keeping a few Spitfire Mk Vb's when they were equipped with P-47's? 

 

Just guesses on my part; we will most likely never know for sure, but it sure is fun trying to figure out what was done 77 years ago! It would make a very different and colorful P-39 project.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

I agree about the squadron hack suggestion, though this is weakened by the other P-39 in the background.  So may they kept two?  What I don't know, but appears to be relevant, is when the full coloured squadron tails were adopted.  I don't believe this would have happened in the 332nd as an individual action.

[KRK4m]

The urban legend I mentioned when starting this topic says that red tails were introduced in all 4 squadrons of the 332nd FG after switching from the P-39 to the P-47. It is not explicitly stated (and merely implied somewhere between the lines) that in 1943 the red tails (used by the Group P-39 while still in the US) were considered too visible on the battlefield.

However, after the introduction of the P-47 (and then the P-51) and due to the low threat posed by Axis fighters, the HQ allowed the tails to be painted red. And my hypothesis is that the red tails were already introduced on the P-39s sometime in the first months of 1944. And this photo confirms this opinion (almost) clearly.

Thank you for your support, although there is still a long way to build the model - the white name on the nose is illegible in this blurred photo Maybe @Dana Bell knows it?

Cheers

Michael

Edited September 4, 2022 by KRK4m

[KRK4m]

It's been 3 years since I first came across these photos, and they bother me more and more.

The announced ArmaHobby kit also awakens the imagination, and here the problem of building a model has just moved away for me - in P-39Q-20 #44-3022 we do not know not only the name in front of the cabin (Jess?) 😢 Well, the area on the fuselage between the exhaust pipes and the US insignia clearly shows something white. That is, only the white is clear, contrasting with the OD background. But these two letters or numbers are completely unknown - P-39Q-20 #44-3028 has white CF letters on the cockpit door, but the P-47Ds photographed a month later already have two-digit numbers (27, 38, etc.). Here the plane has the engine covers off and only the lower ends of the two letters or numbers are visible. It may well be CP or SI, but also 31 or 51. Interestingly - the plane from photo 13/14 (we still do not know the serial number, and at that time not only P-39L, M, N and Q were flying in Italy, but also the P-39K, F, D and even the P-400 flown earlier to Morocco directly from the UK), ALMOST certainly named Eileen, has some remnants of a yellow band in front of the tail, red stripes on the wings undersides  and some two letters (probably SD) on the cockpit door. Whether she has anything behind the exhaust pipes - we don't know. This area is effectively obscured by a wing.

@Dana Bell - you are our last hope 🛐

Cheers

Michael

PS. Thanks to the incredibly sharp photo sent to me by @Ed Russell you can ALMOST certainly recognize the inscription in front of the cockpit as Jolila (or Folila / Tolila / Solila) - God knows what it means, because I never met any of these words as a name. However, the biggest puzzle remains the side number - 31, 51, 61, 81 or 91? Rather, these are not letters, because those were found on the cockpit door, and in aircraft taken over from other units - such as the abovementioned #44-3028 "Quanto Costa", previously used by the 350th FG.

Edited September 3, 2022 by KRK4m
PS added