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Argentinian Dagger load question

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On 1/1/2019 at 12:13 PM, beppe said:

The 1300 L has vertical fins, at far as I remember from my service days, and still I put one of those only once for a cross country flight I think.

 

Now where to find a third is a good question.

Can't 1700 l wing tanks be used together the a PM-3 and two bombs ? 

 

 

 Well the 1700 L are a bit wider also a bit different on size, because of that not only weight issues during take off have to be consider the clearance with the ground on the middle fuselage pylonas main reason  

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Thanks for these great pieces of info gentlemen! Very much appreciated!

 

The Daggers not being able to use the 1700l tanks is interesting indeed!!

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Posted (edited)

There are photos of Dagger’s with the 1700l tanks post-conflict. According to a publication I have, this  is when the modification was done to accept the tanks. Would someone be able to confirm that it wasn’t until after the war that this was actually done?

Edited by TBC

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5 hours ago, TBC said:

Would someone be able to confirm that it wasn’t until after the war that this was actually done?

Indeed, surviving Daggers were updated to Finger standards (IIIA, IIIB) and Maras after the conflict, so those surviving Daggers first went through modifications in order to accept the 1700-litre tanks.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

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On 1/1/2019 at 10:19 PM, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

Well the other thing to have under consideration in relation to the fuel tanks is that on BAM San Julian they used the 1,300 lts  and can be 2 or 3 depending on the mission, Daggers coming from BAM Rio Grande used the 1,700 lts tanks; but you have to be careful as there were at that time some movement between the aircraft aviable

 

 

Please notice this Daggers were stationed in BAM San Julian and BAM Rio Grande; the fuel tank fittings were French/Peruvian/Venezuelan fuel Tanks (Metric) in 1300 lts and on the Israeli fuel tanks (Imperial) on the 1700 lts  and those were flown in secret flights from Buenos Aires - Tel Aviv Argentine Air Force Boeing B-707 (also included on second flight 3 overhauled Atar 9C engines, plus 5 tons of winter jackets)

 

Those 1700 lts fuel tanks already made for IAI Daggers no fix needed or upgraded other than no use of it on central under fuselage pylon

 

Argentine aircraft maintenance crew fixed all fuel tanks about mid April 1982

 

Cheers

 

Armando

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How's it going, mi negro querido? :kissing2:

 

16 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

the fuel tank fittings were French/Peruvian/Venezuelan fuel Tanks (Metric) in 1300 lts and on the Israeli fuel tanks (Imperial) on the 1700 lts  and those were flown in secret flights from Buenos Aires - Tel Aviv Argentine Air Force Boeing B-707 (also included on second flight 3 overhauled Atar 9C engines, plus 5 tons of winter jackets)

That's puzzling, as the Neshers in Israel fighting the Six Day War and Yom Kippur hardly ever needed to use the 1300-litre tanks on the wing pylons; they just used the 500-litre supersonic and the 1300-litre tanks on the centre-pylon.

Also, the secret flights mentioned were done by the Mirage 5Ps flying from Perú to Argentina, not Israel. That was made under the table to baffle those Chilean observers.

 

16 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Those 1700 lts fuel tanks already made for IAI Daggers no fix needed or upgraded other than no use of it on central under fuselage pylon

 

Argentine aircraft maintenance crew fixed all fuel tanks about mid April 1982

Only mods made to the Daggers by Israel Air Industries were the antennae (VHF under the nose and spine, VOR on the tail and some avionics). Never heard that maintenance crews ever did the mods to accept the 1700-litre tanks on the wings of the Daggers before the war outbreak. Where did you read about that, luv?

Cheers,

 

Unc2  

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Uncle Uncool said:

How's it going, mi negro querido? :kissing2:

There were 7 secret flights Aerolineas Argentinas to Israel and  Libia look here

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/1467743-malvinas-revelan-que-pilotos-de-aerolineas-argentinas-realizaron-vuelos-secretos-en-busca-de

 

Quote

 

Only mods made to the Daggers by Israel Air Industries were the antennae (VHF under the nose and spine, VOR on the tail and some avionics). Never heard that maintenance crews ever did the mods to accept the 1700-litre tanks on the wings of the Daggers before the war outbreak. Where did you read about that, luv?

Cheers,

Avialatina Fuerza Aerea Argentina Dagger & Finger paginas 25-26 the fix was dong by argentinian crew members 1st Corporal M Rinaudo and  Corporals H. Alvares and C. Sanchez 1700 fuel tanks taken from AMD Mirage IIIEA / Mirage IIIV peruvian and venezuelan help; trials done on May 5th, 1982: my mistake 1700 fuel tanks have french (metric fittings)  1300 tanks have US American (Imperial fittings) something was done to allow 1700 liter fuel tanks to be used on the Daggers

Cheers

 

Armando

Edited by RAGATIGER

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On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:08 AM, RAGATIGER said:

There were 7 secret flights Aerolineas Argentinas to Israel and  Libia look here

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/1467743-malvinas-revelan-que-pilotos-de-aerolineas-argentinas-realizaron-vuelos-secretos-en-busca-de

Armando,

I would not pay mind to that book, or take those accounts too seriously for many reasons.

First is the Brits would have positively known that we were smuggling weapons in commercial airliners. They certainly learnt we would use to cross troops over to the islands on them, so go figure. After the French embargo, the British inteligence kept every track of our Military movements, so I couldn't think we could have ever dealt with Khadafi that easily without having been blown up, much less the Israelis.

Secondly, it's the very unlikely account on a Boeing 707 loaded to bear, flying at 300 feet. I'm not saying that the Argie jocks wouldn't have been able to fly a heavily loaded cargo aircraft that low, but it's the highly inefficient rate of fuel consumption for an aircraft which is on its weight limit, supposed to cross the Atlantic ocean undercover!

Then, my family is in the Military, both the Armada and the Air Force and, although I was just a three-year-old toddler back in '82, I think I would have learnt about these flights by now, for I've learnt about a lot more sensitive operations the Armada used to fly from early 1976 to late 1983.

If these flights had been real, I know for a fact that there would have surely been awful repercussions to Aerolíneas Argentinas as a company by all of the Human Right associations because it all turned into a witch hunt for the Military after the war was over.

 

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:08 AM, RAGATIGER said:

 Avialatina Fuerza Aerea Argentina Dagger & Finger paginas 25-26 the fix was dong by argentinian crew members 1st Corporal M Rinaudo and  Corporals H. Alvares and C. Sanchez 1700 fuel tanks taken from AMD Mirage IIIEA / Mirage IIIV peruvian and venezuelan help; trials done on May 5th, 1982: my mistake 1700 fuel tanks have french (metric fittings)  1300 tanks have US American (Imperial fittings) something was done to allow 1700 liter fuel tanks to be used on the Daggers

As for the Daggers being able to carry the 1700-litre tanks on stations #2 and #6, it's not only the tanks which needed to be modified, but the whole internal electric system. During the war, there was high attrition for the 1300-litre tanks, which were jettisoned by the Daggers after releasing the bombs. Such was the lack of them that a local aluminium company was commisioned to build extra 1300-litre tanks needed for the Dagger missions. Most pictures of Daggers during the war will show them carrying the 1300-litre tanks.

Now, I can only surmise that a handful of Daggers might have been modified before (or during) the war in order to carry those 1700-litre tanks, but not all of them. Hard evidence I was able to gather regarding this subject was a piccy of C-428 with the 1700-litre tanks, flying side by side to a Learjet 35 of the Phoenix Squad.

 

L9eoMsR.jpg

 

You're able to tell that this picture was taken during the war because of the ID bands present and the empty Nafgan bomb rack on the Dagger (+ the fact that the shot was taken from Learjet 35 T-23 indicates that it was while RTB, of course). C-428 was shot down by a Sea Wolf missile on 21/05/1982, so this couldn't have been a picture taken shortly after the war.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

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And going back to 2015 here on Britmodeller, a previous discussion about Falklands Daggers with a photo of a pair of them in formation carrying 1700l tanks. Taken from the same Lear 35? 

 

And below that pic, C-407, subject of the O.P.

 

 

Edited by TBC

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23 hours ago, TBC said:

And going back to 2015 here on Britmodeller, a previous discussion about Falklands Daggers with a photo of a pair of them in formation carrying 1700l tanks. Taken from the same Lear 35? 

Thing is I don't quite think it was a fixed, general rule that, for logistic reasons, the 1300-litre tanks were used exclusively by the II Squad. at San Julíán, while the I Squad. at Río Grande operated with the 1700-litre tanks. In fact, there are both pictures and war accounts of Daggers flying off Río Grande with the 1300-litre tanks under the wings.

I think some of the Daggers at Río Grande had the mods done in order to be capable of carrying those 1700-litre tanks as well, and with regard to this, I'd just venture to affirm that the 1700-litre tanks were limited in numbers, and only used in the two-tank, four-bomb Foxtrot configuration. Be that as it may, I've identified those aircraft who were capable of carrying both types of tanks, like C-428, C-418 and C-436.

Yesterday I've found the very same picture Jorge posted on the thread Jonathan P started back in 2015. I knew that there were two Daggers flying side by side to the Learjet 35 T-23. But first I found this piccy in which a hint of the tail of the other Dagger was visible behind the Dagger in the foreground.

 

EWQPd4x.jpg

 

But guess what? The aircraft in the foreground is actually C-418 (not C-428 as I thought it was), and the other one is its wingman, C-436. Here's a picture of C-428 on another sortie, along with Learjet 35 T-23 (or T-24?) of the Phoenix Squad. Dagger C-418 survived the war.

 

dXRpCqN.jpg

 

What is more; here you are a piccy of at least four Daggers from I Squad. at Río Grande, which are carrying the 1700-litre tanks, but I can't tell which aircraft they are exactly. There's a fifth Dagger in the background on which I can't tell whether it's carrying the larger tanks or the 1300-litre ones. It's interesting to note that neither of the Daggers is wearing the ID bands. Now check the date on the picture and the San Julián badge on it. (?)

 

5REPcd1.jpg

 

Finally, last picture I want you to take into account is of a group of ordies working on tank fittings. Caption in Spanish reads: "Mechanics getting 1700-litre tanks ready at BAM San Julián; May 1982."

 

 eTwscCD.jpg

 

Now, those of you who are familiar with the many tank types available to the Mirage will clearly notice that those are actually 1300-litre tanks.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

Edited by Uncle Uncool
typo

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Wonderful pics, Unc. Nothing that I’ve ever seen published, and I’m including a publication in Spanish I have on the Argentine Daggers/Fingers. And as to the last pic having the tanks captioned incorrectly, well, it just proves that errors are made. Luckily, in this case, it is clear what they are. The caveat being that one has some familiarity with the type-as you’ve stated.

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Last picture, tanks are 1300 L, check fins at the end of the tanks.

Anyway, whatever config you choose the wingman/kinetic are great kits.

 

Edited by beppe

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On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 6:45 PM, TBC said:

Wonderful pics, Unc. Nothing that I’ve ever seen published, and I’m including a publication in Spanish I have on the Argentine Daggers/Fingers. And as to the last pic having the tanks captioned incorrectly, well, it just proves that errors are made. Luckily, in this case, it is clear what they are. The caveat being that one has some familiarity with the type-as you’ve stated.

Oh, you're quite welcome, TBC. Just trying to shed some light with regard to this 1300-litre-tank yeh, 1700-litre-tank nay thing.

I think it's quite easy to create a big confusion out of having read wrong info on a blog regarding events which happened almost 40 years ago.

 

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 12:28 PM, beppe said:

Last picture, tanks are 1300 L, check fins at the end of the tanks.

That's right; also, the height of the pylons is taller on the 1300-litre tanks, compared to those in the 1700-litre tanks.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

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The Daggers also carried British Mk 17, 1000 lbs bombs, the attack on HMS Antrim was made by Daggers, one of them

dropped a Mk 17, and it went straight through the doors to the seaslug magazines, but did not explode.

The Mk 17 where mounted on the centerline.

As of today I have not seen any Pictures of Daggers with Mk 17.

 

Bo

Edited by Bo hermansen

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 11:42 AM, Bo hermansen said:

As of today I have not seen any Pictures of Daggers with Mk 17.

Hi Bo!

I'm mates with a bloke in Barrit who would use to post on here.

That's quite a long shot; even more difficult than it has been for me to get one of the Aeroclub 1/48 Vulcan kits to come down to Argieland.

I mean, I would be able to get you piccies of the very same Mk17s which went through British warships and didn't explode if so you wished, but I'm yet to be able to get you one single piccy of a Dagger armed with them during the war.

As consolation, I could only provide you with this: check that Mk17 in the centreline pylon!

 

mFpobzi.jpg  

 

Cheers,

 

Unc2

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