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goon

Argentinian Dagger load question

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Hi All,

I'm putting together research for my build of Wingman Models Dagger. I'm building C407, shot down by Sharkey Ward on 21st May. As the flight this aircraft was in was targetting the landing British forces, I assume it was armed with air to ground weapons. As far as I know the Daggers used Expal 250's but some references are contradictory. Can anyone confirm this, and say whether 2 or 4 were the more usual quantity? 

 

Many thanks,

Gareth

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According to Harpia's book on Latin American Mirages,that day the Daggers of Escuadron I were armed with 2 BRP, the parachute retarded variant of the expal 250

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Thanks Giorgio. Does it mention which pylons? (I'm assuming the outer ones with the 1300 litre tanks.) 

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No mention of the pylons used in this mission but a picture shows this same load on the two real fuselage pylons, maybe this was the preferred configuration.  The 1300 litre tanks are mentioned as part of the load carried that day

Edited by Giorgio N

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Not C-407, but hopefully a few pics that you will find useful. C-415 with a pair of BRP-250's on the rear pylons and three 1300 liter subsonic tanks. Next is C-432 with a pair of BRP-250's on the centerline pylon, a pair on the aft fuselage pylons and a pair of 1300 liter subsonic tanks on the wings. The third photo shows a pylon-mounted BRP-250 to better advantage.

 

 

 odAAGU.jpg

 

98MYW1.jpg

 

VQHkxS.png

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Really useful stuff. Thanks both.

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On 12/29/2018 at 8:42 AM, goon said:

Hi All,

I'm putting together research for my build of Wingman Models Dagger. I'm building C407, shot down by Sharkey Ward on 21st May. As the flight this aircraft was in was targetting the landing British forces, I assume it was armed with air to ground weapons. As far as I know the Daggers used Expal 250's but some references are contradictory. Can anyone confirm this, and say whether 2 or 4 were the more usual quantity? 

 

Many thanks,

Gareth

I stand to be corrected, but wasn't this flight going after HMS Brilliant?

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In Falklands Air War by Chris Hobson / Andrw Noble the authors state that Raton flight was picked up by Brilliant's radar and the Harrier CAP vectored to intercept North of Mount Maria. Maybe I've made an assumption too far, but I was working on the aircraft attacking the troops / ships in San Carlos Water. Brilliant was certainly attacked by an earlier flight, and several crew wounded. 

 

 I'm not an expert but the nature of San Carlos Water's geography and the extreme low level attack make me think that the pilots would have attacked whatever ship was in front of them as they cleared the hills and cleared off as fast as they could. It's certainly what I would have done! 

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Posted (edited)

Hi there

 

It happens that I been searching about the subject, so let me say that 2 bombs (parachute retarded) normally a load to attack a naval target and 4 bombs (normal tail) normally to attack surface (beach head and troops concentrations) there been two different types of tails and some difference on the fuse, right now not have my notes but the latter serves right enough as only can recommend Freightdog Expal bombs in 1/72 and 1/48 for the parachute retarded and normal Mk.82 for high speed tail

 

Raton (Mice) Flight Fragmentary Order # 1198, composed by tree IAI Dagger A: Cap Guillermo Donadille (C-403 ) My Gustavo Piuma (C-404) and 1LT Jorge Senn (C-407): configuration 3 external 1,300 lts fuel tank and 2 Expal BRP250 parachute retarded; taking off from BAM San Julian at 14:05. And all whee shoot down by Sea Harrier CAP  (Sharky Ward and  Steve Thomas) about at 17:501Z (Please beware as I have trouble with the time frame as one is from Argentian sources and the other one on British sources)

 

Cheers

 

Armando

Edited by RAGATIGER

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Thanks Armando - that's very useful information. I have the Antarki BRP-250 bombs, which don't state whether they are retarded or 'slick'. Wingman only supply two of the 1300 tanks (with the tail surfaces) which I might have to source another one to get three under it. As far as I can tell there are no rear wing root pylons either. 

 

Thanks again everyone,

Gareth

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3 hours ago, goon said:

Thanks Armando - that's very useful information. I have the Antarki BRP-250 bombs, which don't state whether they are retarded or 'slick'. Wingman only supply two of the 1300 tanks (with the tail surfaces) which I might have to source another one to get three under it. As far as I can tell there are no rear wing root pylons either. 

 

Thanks again everyone,

Gareth

The BRP-250 is parachute-retarded and the BR-250 is a free-fall, correct?

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Hi Gareth

 

Try a centerline tank from the esci/italeri Kfir for your third 1300 L, or the tank from  a mirage 2000 Revell/monogram

 

 

Joseph

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I will look in to that. Thanks Joseph.

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Joseph,

 

       Yes, there are many workable solutions, but the issue will be in duplicating any plastic parts to look like the resin tanks in the Wingman kit. I think some of the Kinetic Kfir boxing's had various numbers/combinations of tanks. The HobbyBoss Mirage IIICJ comes to mind, too.

 

The rear pylons can be found in Wingmans WMF 48028 Kfir and Nesher air to ground armament set which is OOP.  I believe the rear pylons can also be found in Kinetics C2/C7 and F-21/Kfir C1 kits and the AMK C2/C7. Depending on who has built any of these kits and how they've "bombed it up", one shouldn't have too much trouble finding the necessary few bits I think.

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mirage IIIcJ hobbyboss/Eduard don't have 1300 l.

 

Instead of using the resin tanks from the wingman kit, you can use the plastic ones from the Italeri dagger.

AMK and Kinetic don't have the right type of tank.

 

The aft pylons were also included in the isracast kfir pylons set.

 

 

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I stand corrected on the HobbyBoss and Eduard Mirage III's, as they both have the 625l subsonic wing tanks and supersonic tanks only.

 

If you look at the sprue shots of the AMK and Kinetic C2/C7 kits (got the kits but too hard to dig out), it would appear that only Kinetic gives you a pair of 1330l tanks with the correct tail cone fin arrangement-they have vertical fins. Whether they got the shape correct or not........

 

I have just compared the resin 1300l tanks in my Wingman Nesher/Dagger/Finger kit to the aftermarket Wingman 48013 Kfir 1300l subsonic wing tanks, and the aft end is very different.  They are both three-part tanks-nose, center and tail cone. The aft end of the center section in the Wingman 48013 set tapers off and is more narrow than the same part in the Nesher kit. The tail cone is also considerably smaller in the 48013 set. This is aside from the fact that the tanks in set 48013 have a tail cone with horizontal fins only and the Nesher kit has vertical fins on the end of the horizontal fins.

 

The Kinetic C2/C7 and F-21 Lion/ Kfir C1 kits have the rear fuselage pylons, parts C5 and C6.

 

I'm not attempting to take Gareth's original post off track, but rather trying to help him suss out where he can source the extra bits that he needs.

 

 

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The 1300 L has vertical fins, at far as I remember from my service days, and still I put one of those only once for a cross country flight I think.

 

Now where to find a third is a good question.

Can't 1700 l wing tanks be used together the a PM-3 and two bombs ? 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, goon said:

Thanks Armando - that's very useful information. I have the Antarki BRP-250 bombs, which don't state whether they are retarded or 'slick'. Wingman only supply two of the 1300 tanks (with the tail surfaces) which I might have to source another one to get three under it. As far as I can tell there are no rear wing root pylons either. 

 

Thanks again everyone,

Gareth

Antarki BRP-250 are chute retarded for low level release

also High Planes Models (Freightdog??) ones are retarded.

 

slick ones look basically like Mk-82, but silghtly different in shape

Edited by exdraken

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Is this set the same tank? The parts look identical from the screenshot. 1300L Tanks.

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8 minutes ago, goon said:

Is this set the same tank? The parts look identical from the screenshot. 1300L Tanks.

Looks identical to the resin parts in the Wingman Nesher/Dagger/Finger kit. No reason to think that they wouldn't be the same.  All you'd need is a centerline pylon.

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7 hours ago, TBC said:

The BRP-250 is parachute-retarded and the BR-250 is a free-fall, correct?

Yes correct!

Selwyn

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18 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

It happens that I been searching about the subject, so let me say that 2 bombs (parachute retarded) normally a load to attack a naval target and 4 bombs (normal tail) normally to attack surface (beach head and troops concentrations) there been two different types of tails and some difference on the fuse, right now not have my notes but the latter serves right enough as only can recommend Freightdog Expal bombs in 1/72 and 1/48 for the parachute retarded and normal Mk.82 for high speed tail

 

Raton (Mice) Flight Fragmentary Order # 1198, composed by tree IAI Dagger A: Cap Guillermo Donadille (C-403 ) My Gustavo Piuma (C-404) and 1LT Jorge Senn (C-407): configuration 3 external 1,300 lts fuel tank and 2 Expal BRP250 parachute retarded; taking off from BAM San Julian at 14:05. And all whee shoot down by Sea Harrier CAP  (Sharky Ward and  Steve Thomas) about at 17:501Z (Please beware as I have trouble with the time frame as one is from Argentian sources and the other one on British sources)

 

Cheers

 

Armando

Armando,

 

BRP 250 bombs were usually fitted with  Expal EROS  and ERCUS Aircraft fuzes. A search on the net should show some images.

 

Selwyn

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi there

 

Well the other thing to have under consideration in relation to the fuel tanks is that on BAM San Julian they used the 1,300 lts  and can be 2 or 3 depending on the mission, Daggers comming from BAM Rio Grande used the 1,700 lts tanks; but you have to be careful as there were at that time some movement between the aircraft aviable

 

Sadly for lots of you guys, best references are available only in books written in Spanish

 

You can look for them at Google using Serie Fuerza Aerea Jorge Nuñez Padin

 

For the bombs look here

 

https://aquellasarmasdeguerra.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/bombas-en-la-guerra-de-malvinas/

 

Please notice the width of the yellow line on those bombs

 

Cheers

 

Armando

Edited by RAGATIGER
correction

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Thanks again everyone, and thanks for that link Armando - very interesting.

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On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 5:13 PM, beppe said:

Can't 1700 l wing tanks be used together the a PM-3 and two bombs ? 

Only the Mirage IIIEA were capable of using the 1700-litre tanks. In order that the Daggers were capable of using them instead of the 1300-litre tanks, the whole electric system in the wings needed to be changed. There was an attempt to experiment, but the idea was discarded in favour of those 1700-litre tanks going to the Mirage IIIEA only.

 

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:19 AM, RAGATIGER said:

Well the other thing to have under consideration in relation to the fuel tanks is that on BAM San Julian they used the 1,300 lts  and can be 2 or 3 depending on the mission, Daggers comming from BAM Rio Grande used the 1,700 lts tanks; but you have to be careful as there were at that time some movement between the aircraft aviable

As I said, Daggers flying combat missions out of San Julián were configured with only the 1300-litre tanks.

There were two configurations possible with the tanks:

India Config: (most common for the bombing raids - two BPR-250 bombs on pylons #3 and #5 + full 30mm cannon load), three 1300-litre tanks. This were complemented with the Shafrir II missiles + full 30mm cannon load (instead of the BPR-250 bombs) for the CAP missions.

Golf Config: two 1300-litre tanks, with the BPR-250 on pylons #3 and #5, plus two more BPR-250 on the central pylon, attached to a Nafgan rack.

 

Then the Hotel Config was comprised of two 1300-litre tanks + the full 30mm cannon load. 

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:45 PM, Selwyn said:

BRP 250 bombs were usually fitted with  Expal EROS  and ERCUS Aircraft fuzes. A search on the net should show some images.

As for the fuses, the ExPal BPR-250s were armed with the 9v Kappa E which were timmed to go off at 2.6 seconds upon release, after which the fuse went off by impact past the 3.0 seconds. Other fuses were the SSQ (SuperSuperQuick) and the MU, which went off at 3.2 feet over ground.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

 

 

 

 

 

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