RLM 83 Dunkelblau ?

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

I have a pot of Vallejo 924 a green with RLM83 on the label........

I'd not trust Vallejo to match a colour with 'both hands and a map'  or to label them correctly...  I find with Vallejo you need to find matches for their paints.

 

The RLM 81/82/83 goes back to when these colours first were researched.    In short, there was a 'RLM 83' designation,  but no name, and it was assumed to be one of the late war defensive ground concealment colours. 

 

there was a light green used late war....  but what it was called is under debate...  as seen on this screen grab. 

Fw 190 2 green uppers_zps00ifmknm by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

[PhantomBigStu]

8 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I'd not trust Vallejo to match a colour with 'both hands and a map'  or to label them correctly...  I find with Vallejo you need to find matches for their paints.

 

The RLM 81/82/83 goes back to when these colours first were researched.    In short, there was a 'RLM 83' designation,  but no name, and it was assumed to be one of the late war defensive ground concealment colours. 

 

there was a light green used late war....  but what it was called is under debate...  as seen on this screen grab. 

Fw 190 2 green uppers_zps00ifmknm by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

Very true, got about 50 vallejo and very much a minority that are close to what they claim to be.....many more though are excellent matches for something else.....

[Graham Boak]

Troy, I think you are confusing matters.  The original 83 (and there was some confusion between 82 and 83) was applied to a bright medium green, the other being a dark green.  The light green, as seen on the sides of this aircraft was labelled as "84"purely for convenience of researchers, it having no known source in German documents.

 

Stu: nowadays I would expect to see a dark green in a tin labelled as 83, and it could be useful for modelling some late-war examples.  It is often thought to be an alternative attempt at 81 where pigments were lacking.  The term 83 has appeared in records as an experimental blue, and welcomed by some as an explanation of otherwise curious maritime schemes.  This is described more fully in postings above.  However, I would not expect to see 83 blue on a commercial paint tin any time soon.

[Werdna]

17 hours ago, bil said:

What’s always bothered me about the 81/82/83 “late-war greens” discussion was why there should be 3 new upper-surface colours introduced to replace the old 70/71, 72/73 and 74/75 pairs.  The idea of a new pair, 81/82, produced under trying circumstances, resulting in colour variations which might then be poorly applied, seems to me a rational explanation of the dilemma.  And leaves 83 as a blue.

 

I agree this does seem to defy logic somewhat.  Particularly the logic of three different shades of RLM81 (ranging from dark brown to dark green).  But research does indeed suggest that three discrete 'recipes' were developed under the '81' banner.  I guess there must have been a reason for lumping them all under the same designation, rather than issuing new ones.  

[Jens]

35 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I did read your entire reply, please do not jump to conclusions, but felt that this part was what required comment.  I entirely agree that RAF intelligence officers in the field would probably not know the RLM numbers of the paints they encountered, and certainly have been known to make mistakes in colour interpretation.  (Study the Battle of Britain descriptions of the colours they saw.  They even identified greys, and we know how silly that was.  Or do we?)  However, by this stage of the war they must have been familiar with Luftwaffe aircraft being painted grey, green or sand.  A reference to one particular group, and only these, as blue suggests something distinctive about these aircraft.  74 is not noticeably blue, when new of faded.  Given the other supporting evidence for this, I think attempting to dismiss the identification is every bit as bad as the sins you find in others.

 

To be fair, I never mentioned RLM74 as an option, only RLM75 and RLM24. FWIW it could have been a mix of colours (like some RAF lower surface colours), so claiming it to be evidence is a bit far fetched. I am open to the fact that the real aircraft might easily have been blue-grey in some areas, I just don't accept the claim that it was RLM83 that easily.

 

Jens

Edited October 12, 2022 by Jens
Double text

[GiampieroSilvestri]

24 minutes ago, Jens said:

 

To be fair, I never mentioned RLM74 as an option, only RLM75 and RLM24. FWIW it could have been a mix of colours (like some RAF lower surface colours), so claiming it to be evidence is a bit far fetched. I am open to the fact that the real aircraft might easily have been blue-grey in some areas, I just don't accept the claim that it was RLM83 that easily.

 

Jens

If the Erprobungsstelle of the Luftwaffe describes the colour as RLM83 Dunkelblau in an official document what more of a evidence do you want?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited October 12, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

was applied to a bright medium green, the other being a dark green.  The light green, as seen on the sides of this aircraft was labelled as "84"purely for convenience of researchers, it having no known source in German documents.

 

Not what I was  trying to illustrate

 

The uppers are in bright medium green.   as are some of the side mottle.  I know, WW2 colour and all that, but the other colours visible, eg grass, tree trunk, leaves, are all reasonable in appearance,  as are the wrecks behind. 

 

Posted as an example of the use of a bright green, possibly a 2 colour  green uppers, look at starboard horizontal tail. 

 

I was not in any sense talking about the light green underside colour the so called "RLM 84" seen on some late aircraft.   The above may well be in this greener form of RLM 76, (note fin) but that was not why I posted the photo.

 

as seen here, neatly contrasted with a very blue version of RLM 76,  the green underside colour.  Again, the flesh, uniform and tree colours suggest this is reasonable colour image.

 

Fw 190 A-8 Gefr Walter Wagener 5 Sturm JG4 Saint Trond 01-01-1945 JEC 07075 by Jeffrey Ethell Collection, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

note the difference in the underside colour between fuselage and tailplane,  and the cowling, likely as parts from different subcontractors. 

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

22 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

If the Erprobungsstelle of the Luftwaffe describes the colour as RLM83 Dunkelblau in an official document what more of a evidence do you want?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

The document presented to us is shown here (and for some reason or the other several passages were blackened) and maybe we just trust the presentation

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2019_02/IMG_20190204_080041.thumb.jpg.9346808746107b17a5e91effa95d0552.jpg

 

 

and it reads 83 was "proposed" to be introduced ("zur Einführung vorgeschlagen". Not "recommended" as found in a a translation given here https://i.imgur.com/xMZdwhg.jpg ) for camouflage of planes used in the Mediterranean.

 

So what could convince me a little more?

- A document like an LDV or a manufacturer's plan for a camouflage pattern mentioning RLM 83 or the recipe (using understandable names for the pigments)

- An artefact (an old paint can with proper label would be nice!)

- A color photograph of "good" quality of a German WW II plane using blue combined with 70 or 72 as a camo

- Good analysis of "blueish" paint found on BV 138 (parts) and He 115 (wreck) found in Norway (though Norway is not quite close to the Mediterranean IIRC) or digging out the Ju 88 remains in Switzerland (and I mean good analysis (maybe gas chromatography mass spectrometry or X-ray fluorescence), not measuring the ph of a ground sample) and outruling RLM 24 (or a miy using it).

 

Still:

I do admit there is this mention of RLM 83 being dark blue (of some kind) and I have no knowledge of any document linking RLM 83 to late war medium green, dark green, or braunviolett.

I wonder how the Luftwaffe and manufacturers (of planes and paint) referenced late war medium green, dark green, and braunviolett (Prime minister, Bletchley park just deciphered and translated this: "Hans, send me a tin of RLM 81, you know ze Braunviollett one, not ze green! Plus one tin af dark green and don't get mixed up viz ze early war Dunkelgrün, we are late war now!", does it make any sense to you? Did the Germany go nuts?).

 

Where are the pictures supporting the story? It would be really nice to see several German WW II planes with "the same" blue camo of halfways matching blue color supporting the idea of "it was RLM 83" and not suggesting "yeah, there was one German plane with blue camo, they used RLM 24 (or a mix using 24 and ...)".

Edited October 13, 2022 by Jochen Barett
typo

[dragonlanceHR]

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

note the difference in the underside colour between fuselage and tailplane,  and the cowling, likely as parts from different subcontractors. 

 

 

 

There are some interesting threads on Hyperscale started by Lynn Ritger and a few photos of relics that support the hypothesis that on some late war RLM76 the paint binder leaked on top of the pigments and yellowed, resulting in greenish "Sky" color. Under the flaking binder there is that lovely light blue-grey that we all know.

 

Cheers,

Vedran

[GiampieroSilvestri]

12 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

The document presented to us is shown here (and for some reason or the other several passages were blackened) and maybe we just trust the presentation

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2019_02/IMG_20190204_080041.thumb.jpg.9346808746107b17a5e91effa95d0552.jpg

 

 

and it reads 83 was "proposed" to be introduced ("zur Einführung vorgeschlagen". Not "recommended" as found in a a translation given here https://i.imgur.com/xMZdwhg.jpg ) for camouflage of planes used in the Mediterranean.

 

So what could convince me a little more?

- A document like an LDV or a manufacturer's plan for a camouflage pattern mentioning RLM 83 or the recipe (using understandable names for the pigments)

- An artefact (an old paint can with proper label would be nice!)

- A color photograph of "good" quality of a German WW II plane using blue combined with 70 or 72 as a camo

- Good analysis of "blueish" paint found on BV 138 (parts) and He 115 (wreck) found in Norway (though Norway is not quite close to the Mediterranean IIRC) or digging out the Ju 88 remains in Switzerland (and I mean good analysis (maybe gas chromatography mass spectrometry or X-ray fluorescence), not measuring the ph of a ground sample) and outruling RLM 24 (or a miy using it).

 

Still:

I do admit there is this mention of RLM 83 being dark blue (of some kind) and I have no knowledge of any document linking RLM 83 to late war medium green, dark green, or braunviolett.

I wonder how the Luftwaffe and manufacturers (of planes and paint) referenced late war medium green, dark green, and braunviolett (Prime minister, Bletchley park just deciphered and translated this: "Hans, send me a tin of RLM 81, you know ze Braunviollett one, not ze green! Plus one tin af dark green and don't get mixed up viz ze early war Dunkelgrün, we are late war now!", does it make any sense to you? Did the Germany go nuts?).

 

Where are the pictures supporting the story? It would be really nice to see several German WW II planes with "the same" blue camo of halfways matching blue color supporting the idea of "it was RLM 83" and not suggesting "yeah, there was one German plane with blue camo, they used RLM 24 (or a mix using 24 and ...)".

Hier ist ein Link zu einer Schweizer Internetseite mit der kompletten Geschichte der Notlandung der Junkers Ju 88 A-4/Trop,1.KG54,B3+MH werknummer 550396 und vielen Fotos welche während der Flugerprobung in der Schweiz gemacht wurden.

Höchstwahrscheinlich waren alle Flugzeuge des Kampfgeschwaders 54 auf Sizilien und später in Nord Italien in diesem Tarnanstrich bemalt da es bei genauem überlegen ziemlich unsinnig gewesen wäre jedes Flugzeug unterschiedlich zu lackieren und schon gar nicht mit selbst gemischten Farben.Selbst die Variationen der Farbtöne mussten vom RLM genehmigt werden.Als Deutscher sollte bekannt sein das Abweichungen der offiziellen Bestimmungen nicht gestattet waren und selbst Heute nicht sind.

 

Here is a link to a swiss internet page with the complete history of the emergency landing of the Junkers Ju 88A-4/Trop from 1.KG54,B3+MH werknummer 550396 and a lot of photographs that have been taken during the flight evaluation in Switzerland.Most probably all aircraft from KG54 in Sicily and later in Northern Italy were painted in this camouflage scheme as thinking closer about it it would have been rather nonsense to paint each aircraft different and in no way with self mixed colours.Even the variations of the Farbtöne had to be approved by the RLM.Being German it should be known that deviations from official regulations were not allowed and are not even today.

 

https://warbird.ch/wb-events/die-ju-88-mit-dem-schweizerkreuz/

 

Grüsse

 

Giampiero

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Jochen Barett]

Yes, thank you, but every time I search the text for "RLM 83" or "blau" all I can find is comments on "hellblau" (RLM 65 or 76) and all the pics are black and white.

 

Regarding "unusual" or "individual" camo we all may take a look at this post:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/a-possibly-brand-new-discovery-about-nachtjaeger-p-t533639.html

 

Quote (the translation given in the post is fine with me):

"General der Nachtjagd asks that the white camouflage coating currently used on the I./xxx (not clear in the document - maybe NJG1?) be generally introduced, since it has proven to be excellent.
The Generalfeldmarschall (Milch) orders:
a. The planes, which are now produced as night fighters, are given a white coat of fighter camouflage, as has been tried and tested when Hptm. Meurer was deployed.
b. The Nachtjagd corps carries out experiments with light blue and reports on the outcome of the same.
c. A white color is developed, which is roughly the shade of Captain Meurer's plane, with the only difference being that it is applied as the base color."

 

 

Interpreting the "need" for developement of a special "white" paint I conclude that Hauptmann Meurer's plane was not just painted with distemper "winter" white or RLM 21, but rather received some thin spraycoat of white giving a somehow different appearance to solid white. Who knows?

 

I'm not trying to derail this in the direction of RLM 85 "Schnellbootweiß für Nachtjäger" (I'd even like to keep out the late war sky/greenish RLM 76), I just like the idea that there was a minute amount of experimentation and individialism in the Luftwaffe - and I'd like to talk about our way of thinking. Maybe Germans do like to have rules and all that (more than other cultures), but "Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel" (The exception that proves the rule).

 

And I think we may agree that Hauptmann Meurer's plane was painted "white(ish)" intentionally and not just because "you know there was a war going on and somebody goofed on the mixture of RLM 76 and there was a shortage in pigments and then there was an earthquake and all of sudden this big mean dog - or they didn't receive the order that winter was over in that unit".

[SafetyDad]

Returning to the Swiss Ju88, and leaving aside for the moment the vexed issue of what exactly RLM83 was, Merrick has an elegant hypothesis that goes quite some way towards explaining what the blue colour used for camouflage on these Mediterranean Ju88s might have been. 

 

He provides colour photos of wartime colour chips of initial versions of 78 and 79. These chips vary considerably from what we have become used to when viewing the desert camouflage colours. The blue 78 is considerably darker and stronger in hue from the 'standard' 78 - it looks somewhat like RAF PRU Blue to my eyes (but let's not go down that rabbit hole and start an argument!) and is quite some way from what I am used to when viewing RLM78. Suffice to say, Merrick proposes this this 'early' 78 may well have been the uppersurface blue used on the Ju88s in question. 

 

He highlights an intriguing piece of the puzzle as the records of the paint quantities ordered and supplied for painting - 9000kg of blue, but only 4000kg of sand. He highlights the oddness of this, given that if blue were to be used as an undersurface colour, it would be reasonable to expect the reverse as the undersurface paint is about one third of the airframe area, with the uppersurfaces being the remaining two thirds.  However, if the blue were used on the uppersurfaces...

 

Merrick's original text and chips are here

 

 

 

 

 

from here

 

 

In accordance with UK Copyright Law, posted solely for the purpose of discussion and intentionally slightly distorted to discourage further replication.

 

 

SD

[SafetyDad]

2 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Regarding "unusual" or "individual" camo we all may take a look at this post:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/a-possibly-brand-new-discovery-about-nachtjaeger-p-t533639.html

 

Quote (the translation given in the post is fine with me):

"General der Nachtjagd asks that the white camouflage coating currently used on the I./xxx (not clear in the document - maybe NJG1?) be generally introduced, since it has proven to be excellent.
The Generalfeldmarschall (Milch) orders:
a. The planes, which are now produced as night fighters, are given a white coat of fighter camouflage, as has been tried and tested when Hptm. Meurer was deployed.
b. The Nachtjagd corps carries out experiments with light blue and reports on the outcome of the same.
c. A white color is developed, which is roughly the shade of Captain Meurer's plane, with the only difference being that it is applied as the base color."

 

 

Interpreting the "need" for developement of a special "white" paint I conclude that Hauptmann Meurer's plane was not just painted with distemper "winter" white or RLM 21, but rather received some thin spraycoat of white giving a somehow different appearance to solid white. Who knows?

 

I'm not trying to derail this in the direction of RLM 85 "Schnellbootweiß für Nachtjäger" (I'd even like to keep out the late war sky/greenish RLM 76), I just like the idea that there was a minute amount of experimentation and individialism in the Luftwaffe - and I'd like to talk about our way of thinking. Maybe Germans do like to have rules and all that (more than other cultures), but "Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel" (The exception that proves the rule).

 

And I think we may agree that Hauptmann Meurer's plane was painted "white(ish)" intentionally and not just because "you know there was a war going on and somebody goofed on the mixture of RLM 76 and there was a shortage in pigments and then there was an earthquake and all of sudden this big mean dog - or they didn't receive the order that winter was over in that unit".

 

Thank you Jochen for this - very interesting indeed and clearly explains the late war nightfighter camo we have become accustomed to.

 

SD

[GiampieroSilvestri]

If you read the text of the swiss internet page it is described that the light blue underside colour was overpainted with black in Switzerland.So if the swiss page is correct and it most probably is the statement in the book about the underside of the aircraft is contradictory.The description of the second picture from above on the swiss internet page says "Die ursprünglich hellblaue Unterseite wurde von der Truppe durch einen schwarzen Sichtschutz überdeckt".

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited October 13, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Jochen Barett]

The Swiss page says the black paint was done by the "Truppe" (troops), in my opinion "troops at the airfield" opposed to "by the manufacturer" but not stating "Swiss Fliegertruppe" or "German troops", and black distemper for night missions was quite common in the Luftwaffe. When referencing the Swiss airforce in other passages they use the term "Fliegertruppe". The caption to pic 328_2 reads "The bomber still has the original paintwork here in Dübendorf" showing black eingine gondolas (and lower fuselage).

 

Anyway, where the ETCs are removed we see the regular underside presumably RLM 76 or RLM 65 and the meandering lines on the side of the fuselage are done in just about that tone of "light grey"- So I assume the meandering lines are "underside color" and not RLM 79 or something like that. In case the RLM issued RLM 83 "dunkelblau" to be as "bright" on B+W film as 76 (or 65) they tricked me.

 

Furthermore my interpretation of the Erprobungsstelle document is that the proposed 83 was to be used in conjunction with 70 and 73, rather replacing 71 and 72 segments than meandering over 70 and 73 (but this is just in my mind, not in the document!).

 

Forgive me for being so stubborn, I don't see RLM 83 dunkelblau in the Swiss report.

 

Talking about planes ment to be used over water, there is this other case proving my incompetence of recognizing proper RLM colors (and/or maybe another case of Germans not following ze rules)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Rear_fuselage_of_Heinkel_He115B-1_‘2398_8L%2BFH’_(42439126410).jpg (more pics of that plane can be easiliy found online)

 

OK, Norway is not quite the Mediterranean, but Denmark is a bit closer 72/73? Black distemper / engine exhaust stains?

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2015/12/3sagr-126-bv-138-in-colour.html?m=1

 

and what do we see here (back in Norway)? True blue? Blueish grey? 72, 73, 74? 83? Something completely different? Some formerly nice grey contaminated by RLM 24 or aged in salty waters?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chcmech/7080082529/

 

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Bildbeschreibung 4.Foto:"Während der Evaluation in Emmen wurden die beiden ETC Bombenschlösser entfernt.Die Steuerbordseite ist immer noch hellblau,während die gegenüberliegende Seite schwarz bemalt wurde".

 

Bildbeschreibung 11.Foto:"Nach der Landung überspritzte die Fliegertruppe(!) das Hakenkreuz mit einer der Originaltarnung entsprechenden Farbe".

 

Um es verständlicher auszudrücken:mit Fliegertruppe ist das Personal der Schweizerischen Flugwaffe gemeint.Die Schweiz ist das einzige Land in dem die Luftwaffe bis heute Fliegertruppe genannt wird.In Deutschland wurde der Begriff nur bis zum ende des Kaiserreichs 1918 verwendet.Es gibt deutliche unterschiede zwischen dem Deutsch das in der BRD und dem das in Österreich oder der Schweiz gesprochen wird.

Beispielsweise sagt man bei uns "Anzeigen" während man in der Schweiz "Verzeigen" sagt.Bestrafen heisst bei den Eidgenossen "Büssen" und ein Auto wird nicht "geparkt" sondern "parkiert".

 

Description picture number 4:During evaluation at Emmen both ETC bomb racks were removed.The right side is still painted in light blue while the left side has been painted black.

 

Description picture number 11:After the landing the Fliegertruppe(!) overpainted the Hakenkreuz with a colour corrisponding the original camouflage.

 

To make it clearer.With Fliegertruppe the personell of the swiss airforce is meant.Switzerland is the only country were the airforce is called Fliegertruppe until today.In Germany it was only used until the end of the Kaiserreich in 1918.There are big differences between the German spoken in Germany and in Austria or Switzerland.For example in Germany it is "Anzeigen" while in Switzerland they say "Verzeigen".Bestrafen is called "Büssen" and a car is not "geparkt" but "parkiert".

 

Grüsse

 

Giampiero

Edited October 14, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Icedtea]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:45 PM, Giorgio N said:

I've been reading with interest this and similar thread as an Italy based Ju-88 is one of my long term modelling plans.. Wonder if I should take the plunge and build one ? Guess the best way to find one of the potential candidates for the use of blue would be to buy the Sundin book but I find the price a bit high as a source for a single model

I read Lucas' article in SAM and he also suggests a small number of Bf-109G as using dark blue on the upper surfaces, what do the Luftwaffe enthusiasts here think ?

Claes Sundin also has a website called 'Luftwaffe Fighter Aces in Profile' it contains many profiles from his publications from AFV's to pacific War aircraft etc. You may find one of these Ju88 profiles there for reference? HTH

[Jochen Barett]

On 14/10/2022 at 13:00, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Bildbeschreibung 4.Foto:"Während der Evaluation in Emmen wurden die beiden ETC Bombenschlösser entfernt.Die Steuerbordseite ist immer noch hellblau,während die gegenüberliegende Seite schwarz bemalt wurde".

 

Bildbeschreibung 11.Foto:"Nach der Landung überspritzte die Fliegertruppe(!) das Hakenkreuz mit einer der Originaltarnung entsprechenden Farbe".

 

Um es verständlicher auszudrücken:mit Fliegertruppe ist das Personal der Schweizerischen Flugwaffe gemeint.Die Schweiz ist das einzige Land in dem die Luftwaffe bis heute Fliegertruppe genannt wird.In Deutschland wurde der Begriff nur bis zum ende des Kaiserreichs 1918 verwendet.Es gibt deutliche unterschiede zwischen dem Deutsch das in der BRD und dem das in Österreich oder der Schweiz gesprochen wird.

Beispielsweise sagt man bei uns "Anzeigen" während man in der Schweiz "Verzeigen" sagt.Bestrafen heisst bei den Eidgenossen "Büssen" und ein Auto wird nicht "geparkt" sondern "parkiert".

 

Description picture number 4:During evaluation at Emmen both ETC bomb racks were removed.The right side is still painted in light blue while the left side has been painted black.

 

Description picture number 11:After the landing the Fliegertruppe(!) overpainted the Hakenkreuz with a colour corrisponding the original camouflage.

 

To make it clearer.With Fliegertruppe the personell of the swiss airforce is meant.Switzerland is the only country were the airforce is called Fliegertruppe until today.In Germany it was only used until the end of the Kaiserreich in 1918.There are big differences between the German spoken in Germany and in Austria or Switzerland.For example in Germany it is "Anzeigen" while in Switzerland they say "Verzeigen".Bestrafen is called "Büssen" and a car is not "geparkt" but "parkiert".

 

Grüsse

 

Giampiero

We may have a different opinion on who put the black paint on (when at what part of the plane) and what "Truppe" opposed to "Fliegertruppe" may reference in THIS document, but it does not add an inch to anybody's Zipfli. Regarding RLM 83 this difference in opinion is the neutral element.

[Jochen Barett]

On 15/10/2022 at 09:26, Icedtea said:

Claes Sundin also has a website called 'Luftwaffe Fighter Aces in Profile' it contains many profiles from his publications from AFV's to pacific War aircraft etc. You may find one of these Ju88 profiles there for reference? HTH

Would it help if I drew nice profiles of Ju 88 in maroon (RLM 86) and purple (RLM 87) with late war lime (RLM 88) stripes using the same B&W images as "proof"?

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Entschuldige aber wie bereits als antwort an Herrn Jensen geschrieben welcher Beweise mehr als einem Offiziellen Dokument der Flugerprobungsstelle Travemünde bedarf es um die Existenz von RLM83 Dunkelblau zu bestätigen?

Wenn Du der Meinung bist das die Farbe nicht existiert hat dann ist es eben so.

 

Sorry but as already written in the answer to Mr.Jensen what evidence more than an official document from the Flugerprobungstelle Travemünde is needed to confirm the existence of RLM83 Dunkelblau?

If you are convinced that the colour did not exist then so be it.

 

Ciao

 

Giampiero

Edited October 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Icedtea]

13 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Would it help if I drew nice profiles of Ju 88 in maroon (RLM 86) and purple (RLM 87) with late war lime (RLM 88) stripes using the same B&W images as "proof"?

As far as I'm concerned...you go for it sport. mind you...would that be fresh colours or faded...we all know how red fades in the sun....

Edited October 17, 2022 by Icedtea
To avoid conflict...its only a hobby after all.

[Jochen Barett]

On 13/10/2022 at 00:25, Jochen Barett said:

So what could convince me a little more?

- A document like an LDV or a manufacturer's plan for a camouflage pattern mentioning RLM 83 or the recipe (using understandable names for the pigments)

- An artefact (an old paint can with proper label would be nice!)

- A color photograph of "good" quality of a German WW II plane using blue combined with 70 or 72 as a camo

- Good analysis of "blueish" paint found on BV 138 (parts) and He 115 (wreck) found in Norway (though Norway is not quite close to the Mediterranean IIRC) or digging out the Ju 88 remains in Switzerland (and I mean good analysis (maybe gas chromatography mass spectrometry or X-ray fluorescence), not measuring the ph of a ground sample) and outruling RLM 24 (or a mix using it).

 

11 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

+++ Sorry but as already written in the answer to Mr.Jensen what evidence more than an official document from the Flugerprobungstelle Travemünde is needed to confirm the existence of RLM83 Dunkelblau?

If you are convinced that the colour did not exist then so be it. +++

 

One thing that does not convince me a) of the existence and b) character of RLM 83 is that Swiss report.

 

In the report linked above ( https://warbird.ch/wb-events/die-ju-88-mit-dem-schweizerkreuz/ ) there is not a single word written about the upper surface color and the other quote regarding the report on that plane mentions "Farbe: Oberseite Wasser - und Wüstentarnung, Unterseite schwarz (Colour: upper surface water and desert camouflage, underside black)" ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/157527966@N03/52425055381/in/dateposted-family/ ) So for one thing we are being told the highly irrelevant underside black was already applied by ze Germans, by the "Truppe" opposed to by the "Fliegertruppe" or the manufacturer but there was 65 (or 76) found under the ETCs AND that area corresponds nicely to the light grey meandering on the upper side.

 

What does the Swiss intelligence report try to tell us? Wasser/water like "squiggly light blue (RLM 65) lines/waves"? Or Wasser/water like "the to be expected Schwarzgrün was replaced by a dark blue color that will be defined as RAL 5011 Stahlblau in 15 years"? And what about the Wüste/desert? Half the squiggles were 79?

 

Does that Swiss report or the Erprobungsstellen proposal give us (modellers) any clue on "how blue" RLM 83 was?

Does that Swiss report give us any clue if the "Wasser/water" was segments of the camo or squiggles?

Does that Swiss report give us any clue that the "Wasser/water" was the RLM 83 mentioned by the Erprobungsstellen proposal (not the squiggly lines) or in the case it was segments of dark blue, could these have been RLM 24 or a mix thereof?

 

I am not convinced that RLM 83 did not exist, but I'd like to be confronted with proper pieces of evidence (and not talk about black and who applied it).

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here are a couple of pictures of 1/KG54 Junkers Ju 88 at Cameri found doing a internet search.Please note the undersides are not painted black but in a light colour with mäander.The book about Luftwaffe paint and marking is contradictory about the camouflage of the Junkers.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri