Jump to content

RLM 83 Dunkelblau ?


Trenton guy

Recommended Posts

I have the AK book out of pure interest, the paints samples are far from ideal as the printed color chips aren’t real paint paintchips.

They also say that for fighters not using the meditiranian sea scheme you should be using the green whether this is the so called wrong version of Rlm 83 or another dark green...

When you do a mediteranian sea scheme you probably should opt for the rlm83 blue one ...

This is because it is probably a color variation of one of the greens then in use...so is rlm 83 green the wrong one for the version you build as a fighter?

Well probably not, only the name is wrong as i read it!!

In my case i still be using the socalled wrong one for my Rlm 83 scheme on my Me262 as this will be most likely the right color with a wrong name..

 

Can we still follow it ?

 

Nevertheless the AK book is still an interesting read with a lot of equally interesting pictures and i can recommend to all..

I also have the original first Monogram book on german colors and this is with the new AK book a valuable  source of info for me regarding these colors and schemes as the AK book has nice info that complements the Monogram one..

Hope this helps..

 

cheers, Jan

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/28/2018 at 5:33 PM, Trenton guy said:

Sundun describes RLM 83 as being an overwater color. Both aircraft illustrated in the scheme are Ju-88’s in naval roles. Has anyone seen or heard of any other support for RLM 83 being “Dunkelblau”? Would make a fun model, if there is some additional basis for it.

 

 

Sunndinbombers.jpg

 

 

A number of noted colours 'experts' (Michael Ullmann and David E.Brown ) work with Claes on his books. Claes told me that the decision was made to "explore" via a couple of artworks the ''recently discovered marine camouflage incorporating RLM Dunkelblau 83.."   Elements of at least five Ju 88 bomber units were stationed in Italy around the summer of 1943. Some of these were also - now famously - supplied with aircraft dispatched from Munich direct to the front line, in what was thought to have been blue 24 upper surfaces with RLM 76 Wellenmuster pattern superimposed. This image exists in the BPK archive ( ignore their caption...). BTW Claes' books have been going for small fortunes on ebay recently. They are all still available via his own Centura Publishing site . ( FWIW personally I tend to agree with Tim ...see post 25)

 

Ju88bpkblue.jpg

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I've given in and written an email to Jürgen Kiroff begging for help with RLM83.

 

If he can help me with specific colour coordinates, I'll make it.

Just do what AK have done, label some of your RLM24 as RLM 83.

 

  • Haha 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, tank152 said:

Just do what AK have done, label some of your RLM24 as RLM 83.

 

 

I'm not hearing great things about their colour matching so am holding off for something compelling from someone who knows a lot about this. If Jürgen Kiroff can't or wont help I'll try casting the net a little wider. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been reading with interest this and similar thread as an Italy based Ju-88 is one of my long term modelling plans.. Wonder if I should take the plunge and build one ? Guess the best way to find one of the potential candidates for the use of blue would be to buy the Sundin book but I find the price a bit high as a source for a single model

I read Lucas' article in SAM and he also suggests a small number of Bf-109G as using dark blue on the upper surfaces, what do the Luftwaffe enthusiasts here think ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neil,

 

Thanks for the kind words. With respect to the colour profiles in Claes' book illustrating the use of RLM 83 Dunkelblau, these subjects were based on examination of photos of the respective aircraft coupled with other datasets.  An important clue is the fact that these aircraft all have a single uppersurface colour over which was applied one or two additional contrasting colours. These observations were combined with new knowledge of this colour that includes photos of aircraft parts painted in this blue shade, official reports (e.g. AI2g), narrative information, etc.  Though not definitive, we believe our interpretations, based on the available evidence and deductive reasoning, are reasonable.  A point should be made that KG 26 was particularly creative in modifying factory-applied camouflage as the unit saw fit reflecting the operational conditions it was operating in. There are a number of examples in Claes' book illustrating this point. The use of promulgated and experimental colours for Luftwaffe aircraft operating in the marine environment is a much overlooked subject.

 

Cheers,

 

David

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/26/2019 at 10:43 AM, FAAMAN said:

It was supposed to be a dark blue, possibly RLM24 Blue with a percentage of black added to darken it.

I've just read the new SAM (Feb2019, Vol.40, iss.12 Pages 64 -67) the article by Paul Lucas is very interesting indeed with some great info but I'm not sure I can agree with his summation of what RLM83 was.

Having read a few of Paul Lucas' articles I do find most of them a bit 'amateurish' (in lack of other words). In his recent article on RLM83 he is jumping to conclusions again and again without substantial evidence. Also, he does not consider other options, e.g. when an intelligence report states "blue-grey on the top surfaces..." it might as well (or perhaps most likely) have been RLM75 instead of RLM24 or the blue RLM83. In other words, he is trying to hard to conclude that the use of a blue (RLM24 or similar) was widespread and thereby ruining a good genuine analysis that might actually shed some light on this subject.

 

Jens

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

Please consider this case of thread archeology as an invitation to all ladies and all gentle men to have a civilized talk on RLM 83 (and neighboring RLM 81 and RLM 82).

 

Let me start with my personal view and bias: When I got into this, there were Humbrol Authentics (not including RLM 75 yet) and Hitchcock's "O-nine" Gallery.

 

There was rumor about "late war greens" in contemporary magazines, and there was Revell and Airfix box art. And I admire anybody who can keep colors apart on a black and white photograph!

 

Later more pictures became available and I am pretty sure there were three late war German "greens":

- a lighter green

- a very dark green

- an olive brownish "green" we may call Braunviolett (nic box arts can be found)

and there was some confusion what was 81, 82, or 83 and there were variations. And I have Ullmann's book "Oberflächenschutzverfahren und Anstriche der ..." in my book shelf.

 

And "just a few days ago" documents or "information" surfaced, suggesting (to some of us "proving") RLM 83 might have been / "was" a dark blue.

 

We all know habit is stronger than gravity, so bear with me: I am not convinced (yet) RLM 83 ist "blue", but I am open to input. And yes, I have read Ullmann's contributions and yes, I have seen those Norwegian German floats. And yes, I know I can be wrong.

 

None of this can be settled by stomping the foot while writing or by shouting or doubting fellow BMer's wits. NONE.

 

https://verde9.com/rlm-83-il-colore-misterioso-della-luftwaffe/#pll_switcher

https://verde9.com/en/luftwaffe-camouflage-schemes-and-patterns/

https://verde9.com/en/

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html

https://emmasplanes.com/index.php/paints/rlm-colors/

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/topic/5974-ak-true-colors/page/2/

 

Before contributing check "Yes, I have seen these web sites and I promise to write like a gentle person"  _____    or "No, bear with me, I have mental issues, I'll post anyway" ____

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's just say that no document or artifact linking RLM 83 with a green colour has EVER surfaced.

 

RLM 83 as a green was just a deduction, made by association with RLM 81 and RLM 82.

 

Jean-Claude Mermet and others had their doubts on this theory; in fact Mermet thought RLM 83 might have been grey.

 

Michael Ullmann DID find a document or documents that link RLM 83 with trials AND implementation of a dark blue paint to be used for maritime camouflage in the Mediterranean.

 

You can draw your own conclusions.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

And "just a few days ago" documents or "information" surfaced, suggesting (to some of us "proving") RLM 83 might have been / "was" a dark blue.

 

It's worth mentioning that none of this came to light 'just a few days ago' - Ullman's research goes back to 2013 (possibly further) - check the date on this link below: 

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/rlm83darkbluemu_1.htm

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Super Aereo said:

Let's just say that no document or artifact linking RLM 83 with a green colour has EVER surfaced.

 

RLM 83 as a green was just a deduction, made by association with RLM 81 and RLM 82.

+++

Good point.

 

I have to admit I not know who came up with RLM 83 being this or that green and what was the source of this claim/statement/assumtion and I don't have any document or artifact to show in support.

 

Still it went along (with all the experts) for quite some time (forming the habit) and in a way 81-82-83 the two greens and the Braunviolett match(ed) somehow - thought there seemd to be some confusion which one was to be considered what color.

 

On the other hand there seem to be several artifacts and photographs showing mid-green (in genereal). dark-green (in general), and "this other olive brownish color" (in general) and not so many artifacts or pictures giving good clues for a dark blue upper surface camouflage color (be it vivid dark blue or dull blueish grey).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

On the other hand there seem to be several artifacts and photographs showing mid-green (in genereal). dark-green (in general), and "this other olive brownish color" (in general) and not so many artifacts or pictures giving good clues for a dark blue upper surface camouflage color (be it vivid dark blue or dull blueish grey).

 

Absolutely, but the latest research would indicate that there were at least three variations of RLM 81 (two of which veering to brown), and two (if I remember correctly) of RLM 82.

 

By late 1944 the German industry was decentralized and widely dispersed into a multitude of workshops, labour camps, and factories in a myriad of locations: the imperative was to produce fighter aircraft by getting components together and assembling them in the most efficient way under the circumstances, and the circumstances were dire, under the relentless Allied air assault on the roads and railways of the Reich. I would think that exact hues would not have been a main priority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good for you Jochen reviving this thread

 

I've given up using the numbers 81, 82 and 83 because of all the confusion around these (and the bad vibes that can be generated - very tired of these).

 

Personally I am convinced by Ullman's statement that 83 is blue as he is a credible researcher and has produced evidence for this. If newer, or more compelling evidence emerges then I can adapt my views if needed.

 

I also am very comfortable with the colour known as Braunviolett - happy to associate this with the number 81 if necessary.

 

I believe there was also a dark green and a brighter 'pea green' used in late war camouflage in varying combinations with a variety of other greys.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

Let's just say that no document or artifact linking RLM 83 with a green colour has EVER surfaced.

 

RLM 83 as a green was just a deduction, made by association with RLM 81 and RLM 82.

 

Jean-Claude Mermet and others had their doubts on this theory; in fact Mermet thought RLM 83 might have been grey.

 

Michael Ullmann DID find a document or documents that link RLM 83 with trials AND implementation of a dark blue paint to be used for maritime camouflage in the Mediterranean.

 

You can draw your own conclusions.

 

I do not want to blame anyone but the 81/82/83 "all green" theory may be rooted with Smith/Creek - in their 335 books, they present a Dornier camou diagram referring to "81 Dunkelgrün/82 Dunkelgrün", then state this diagram is the only one known to actually spell out the names of those Farbtöne, and then deduce Dornier got it wrong because 81 is known to be Braunviolett. If in fact 81 was something similar to US OD, and possibly with a range of acceptable compositions, this would obviate the need to have either 82 or 83 as Grass Green or alternatively Dark Green, respectively. In my very humble opinion

 

2 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

 

Absolutely, but the latest research would indicate that there were at least three variations of RLM 81 (two of which veering to brown), and two (if I remember correctly) of RLM 82.

 

By late 1944 the German industry was decentralized and widely dispersed into a multitude of workshops, labour camps, and factories in a myriad of locations: the imperative was to produce fighter aircraft by getting components together and assembling them in the most efficient way under the circumstances, and the circumstances were dire, under the relentless Allied air assault on the roads and railways of the Reich. I would think that exact hues would not have been a main priority.

 

I fully agree (see sister thread), and the bombing not only concerned the transport network, but also the sites producing the paints and/or raw materials (coal liquification at Leuna, for instance). I do not think dogmatism has a place in late war Luftwaffe colours, and heated debates should be avoided, simply because colour photos are more than tricky in most instances and no-one of us had the privilege (or otherwise) of being there. Hindsight in some cases is significantly less than 20/20 🙂

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

One thing that confuses me in my logics is that if we say that there were only two green late war greens in RLM nomenclature by new discoveries and that based on the paint production sources they varied... how do we justify the existence of the late war fighter airframes that according to outdated research spotted three colors: 81 / 82 / 83 (old research nomenclature)?
Would such company making the airframe order RLM 81 & RLM 82 from one company and then additional RLM 81 from second company hoping that they can get better camouflage by using two distinctively different colors (marked with same number) or do you think that still one of these three colors (81 82 83) is still in fact one of the early war or mid war colors (70 71 74 75) being used? If yes - then we can still assume that such early / mid war fighter & bomber colors were used more often than not to replace some of the late war colors even when only two colors were utilized in the camouflage?

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Surviving stocks of 70/71?  Errors in interpretation?  One of the colours being sprayed thinly to give the effect of a lighter colour?

 

From photos alone, even colour ones, it is probably impossible.  However there are a large number of other sources to help.  Mainly anecdotal observations and examination of relics, but in some cases factory documentation exists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What’s always bothered me about the 81/82/83 “late-war greens” discussion was why there should be new upper-surface colours introduced to replace the old 70/71, 72/73 and 74/75 pairs.  The idea of a new pair, 81/82, produced under trying circumstances, resulting in colour variations which might then be poorly applied, seems to me a rational explanation of the dilemma.  And leaves 83 as a blue.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/3/2019 at 3:10 PM, Jens said:

 Also, he does not consider other options, e.g. when an intelligence report states "blue-grey on the top surfaces..." it might as well (or perhaps most likely) have been RLM75 instead of RLM24 or the blue RLM83. In other words,

You would prefer to believe that an RAF intelligence officer, familiar with other German aircraft, and faced with a scrapyard full of them, should somehow mistake 74 for a blue, but only on Ju.88s?  I think this beyond belief.  Now whether it was 24 or some other blue, which may or may not have been called 83, may be more legitimately in doubt.  There is also the discussion in merrick on the aircraft that landed in Switzerland en-route: it not exactly precise there's no suggest of the familiar colours there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

You would prefer to believe that an RAF intelligence officer, familiar with other German aircraft, and faced with a scrapyard full of them, should somehow mistake 74 for a blue, but only on Ju.88s?  I think this beyond belief.  Now whether it was 24 or some other blue, which may or may not have been called 83, may be more legitimately in doubt.  There is also the discussion in merrick on the aircraft that landed in Switzerland en-route: it not exactly precise there's no suggest of the familiar colours there.

 

I think you should read my entire reply, not just this part taken out of context. That said, I do believe that RAF intelligence officers could mistake one colour for another. If they were so thoroughly into LW colours they could have used the RLM codes, but they most likely a) didn't know them, and b) did not consider an accurate description to be a priority (and who can blame them?!).

 

Just to recap, Paul Lucas is stating RLM codes based on written descriptions as if there are no other options. That is poor analysis work.

 

Jens

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Jens said:

 

I think you should read my entire reply, not just this part taken out of context.

I did read your entire reply, please do not jump to conclusions, but felt that this part was what required comment.  I entirely agree that RAF intelligence officers in the field would probably not know the RLM numbers of the paints they encountered, and certainly have been known to make mistakes in colour interpretation.  (Study the Battle of Britain descriptions of the colours they saw.  They even identified greys, and we know how silly that was.  Or do we?)  However, by this stage of the war they must have been familiar with Luftwaffe aircraft being painted grey, green or sand.  A reference to one particular group, and only these, as blue suggests something distinctive about these aircraft.  74 is not noticeably blue, when new of faded.  Given the other supporting evidence for this, I think attempting to dismiss the identification is every bit as bad as the sins you find in others.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...