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Trenton guy

RLM 83 Dunkelblau ?

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Santa brought a copy of Claes Sundin’s “Luftwaffe Bombers, Profile Book No. 7”. Gorgeous profiles, as usual, but two of them bear an overall blue finish with wave mirror squiggles.  The color is described as being RLM 83, Dunkelblau. A new one on me. Up until now I had thought RLM 83 to be one of two greens (dark or light, opinions seem to differ) used with RLM 81, so described by virtually every Luftwaffe colors source. I think I have them all starting with the Karl Reis books.

 

Sundun describes RLM 83 as being an overwater color. Both aircraft illustrated in the scheme are Ju-88’s in naval roles. Has anyone seen or heard of any other support for RLM 83 being “Dunkelblau”? Would make a fun model, if there is some additional basis for it.

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There is Dunkelblau numbered as RLM 24, so either a mistake in the print or, the author is suggesting a mix between 24 and 83 resulting in RLM 83 Dunkelblau?

 

Some digital samples here:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/Encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html

 

Another digital chart here gives a v.2 of RLM 83 as being an olive grey.  It looks very dark (pretty much black to my eye):

https://www.gyges.dk/Digital Luftwaffe WW2 colours.pdf

 

 

dd948691-bb97-47bc-a189-2bd068537d6e.png

even lightening it by 25% looks quite dark:

 

5FKvNGL.png

 

regards,

Jack

 

Edited by JackG

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To date the only known official documentation of RLM 83 is in Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15 August 1944, where it is listed among other dark shades, without describing the color, and in a RLM report dated November 1943, announcing the introduction of the Color RLM 83 Dunkel Blau as a camouflage color.  This document describes its use with RLM 72 for seaplanes and RLM 70 for land based aircraft operating in the Mediterranean.

 

Prior to the above mentioned documentation there were RLM messages documenting the development of a camouflage scheme exclusively for the Mediterranean Sea.   For this purpose a new dunkel blau was developed and tested.  During the development phase this color was identified as 300/III and after acceptance as RLM 83 Dunkel Blau.   

Edited by Vonbraun

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There are RAF intelligence reports of Ju88s in blue found on an Italian airbase, and a Swiss account of one that landed in that country en route to Italy.  These of course do not identify the colour by an RLM number.

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I claim no expertise in the eternal late-Luftwaffe color wars beyond reading what others have published! But recent work by researcher Michael Ullman makes a good argument that 83 was indeed a dark blue color. 

 

Existing documentation consistently points to 81, 82, and 76 as the prescribed late-war colors for several types, so Mr. Ullman’s companion argument to his 83 thesis, is that the dark green seen on many late-war aircraft is a version of 81.

 

It’s my understanding that: no reliable detailed descriptions or official color chips of 81 are known; no description or chip of 83 as a dark green are known; and the evidence supporting 82 as the late-war bright green is fairly solid. So it all seems to fit (tenuously!  😁) together.

Edited by MDriskill

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There is no known period documentation from any source that described RLM 83 as green or proposed its use on fighter aircraft. 

 

The belief that RLM 83 was green came about  because researchers had a list of RLM paints that included 83, but no descriptive terms or color samples.  Based on the information available to them at the time it was assumed that 83 was green. Initially it was provisionally described as 83 Hellgrün and later revised to 83 Dunkelgrün.  At the time these were reasonable assumptions.

 

Ulmann's research has established a compelling case for  83 Dunkelblau.  Additionally as mentioned above the are accounts Ju 88s camouflaged with blue paint from Swiss, British and German sources.

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If RLM 83 was a dark blue, does that mean late war Fw 190Ds were painted in dark green and dark blue? Doesn't make much sense for a fighter flying over land, unless it was a nightfighter.

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8 minutes ago, Sturmovik said:

If RLM 83 was a dark blue, does that mean late war Fw 190Ds were painted in dark green and dark blue? Doesn't make much sense for a fighter flying over land, unless it was a nightfighter.

No. 

the points from above are

On 28/12/2018 at 23:20, Vonbraun said:

The belief that RLM 83 was green came about  because researchers had a list of RLM paints that included 83, but no descriptive terms or color samples.  Based on the information available to them at the time it was assumed that 83 was green. Initially it was provisionally described as 83 Hellgrün and later revised to 83 Dunkelgrün.  At the time these were reasonable assumptions.

above

On 28/12/2018 at 22:52, MDriskill said:

, so Mr. Ullman’s companion argument to his 83 thesis, is that the dark green seen on many late-war aircraft is a version of 81.

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@Troy Smith could those dark greens have been remaining stock of RLM 70 and 71? But maybe those weren't available for fighters. Or maybe RLM 82 and 71?

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22 hours ago, Sturmovik said:

@Troy Smith could those dark greens have been remaining stock of RLM 70 and 71? But maybe those weren't available for fighters. Or maybe RLM 82 and 71?

I’ve had the same thought. “83 green” seems to be quite similar in hue to 71, and with many bomber types being taken out of production in 1944, one would think plenty of 71 would have been available.

 

On the other hand, 81 and 82 were not just new colors, but also a new formula of paint; resin-based material designed to be applied directly to aluminum without extensive priming. Would using these in conjunction with older stocks of cellulose-based 71 caused issues?

 

At this point, not only have we have left my expertise far behind...but I am reminded of Nick Millman’s maxim that “logical assumption is the opposite of research,” LOL...!

 

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On 12/31/2018 at 9:55 AM, Sturmovik said:

If RLM 83 was a dark blue, does that mean late war Fw 190Ds were painted in dark green and dark blue? Doesn't make much sense for a fighter flying over land, unless it was a nightfighter.

No it just means that RLM 83 was misidentified as a green. Evidence provided in this thread now almost conclusively defines 83 as a dark blue and the misidentified green on Fw190D's etc as a variant of an existing green camo colour. Nothing changes except the addition of another colour in the RLM palette to confuse us all!

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The old cellulose paints were those replaced in 1938.  I don't recall seeing any comments about intentional changes in 1944, although there probably were substitutions as supplies became more difficult.

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Thanks Graham! That’s very interesting, and not something I understood from my references.

 

So again, makes me wonder if “83 green” might be good old 71 in disguise, LOL...

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Oh no here we go again, RLM83.

This was exhaustively discussed here :

 

In short, RLM83 is a dark blue used in the Med on selected aircraft, mostly Ju 88s of KG-54.

The "green" RLM83 was a most probably a miss-identified RLM71, maybe.

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Is there any hint about the hue, tone or whatever of "RLM 83 Blue"?

I am planning to build Ju88T-1 "4U+QK" of 2.F123. According to "Der Adler mit dem Fernrohr", Rabeder et al, p. 240f, this plane was stripped of factory finish and repainted "dark blue" in May 1943.

TIA, Richard

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The latest SAM has an article by Paul Lucas discussing RLM83 as  blue.  Away from home, so can't tell if it discusses hue but there are speculative colour profiles.

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It was supposed to be a dark blue, possibly RLM24 Blue with a percentage of black added to darken it.

I've just read the new SAM (Feb2019, Vol.40, iss.12 Pages 64 -67) the article by Paul Lucas is very interesting indeed with some great info but I'm not sure I can agree with his summation of what RLM83 was.

Edited by FAAMAN

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11 hours ago, FAAMAN said:

It was supposed to be a dark blue, possibly RLM24 Blue with a percentage of black added to darken it.

I've just read the new SAM (Feb2019, Vol.20, iss.12 Pages 64 -67) the article by Paul Lucas is very interesting indeed with some great info but I'm not sure I can agree with his summation of what RLM83 was.

That would be Vol.40, iss.12.

 

 

Chris

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Hello,

I think the latest news about RLM83 Dark Blue are in the new book from AK. Real Colors of WWII-Aircraft. Now a original recipe of this color was found and Mr. Jürgen Kiroff, the well known Co Author from Mr. Merrick`s last Luftwaffe books, had mixed a color sample to this recipe. So I think the best is to buy a bottle of AK Real Colors RLM83 as a sample. I will go this way, using the AK RLM83 as a master and try to mix my own in enamel paint. In the book is a printed sample but I found no usefull match in FS, RAL or BS standards.

Hope it helps

Claus

PS Up to date I was not able to buy one.

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7 hours ago, cdk said:

I think the latest news about RLM83 Dark Blue are in the new book from AK. Real Colors of WWII-Aircraft.

7 hours ago, cdk said:

In the book is a printed sample but I found no usefull match in FS, RAL or BS standards.

 

 

Hmm, I wonder what this will be like....  the Real Colors WWII Armor book has some SERIOUS issues

 

see https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/track48/ak-interactive-real-colors-t10663-s20.html

 

from @Mike Starmer  the "author"  of the British section

Quote

Regarding the AK book.  To be honest I am livid and disgusted at the way they published the British section.  My submitted original text was requested to be shortened, which I did.  They then edited that without my knowledge. I sent complete sets of camouflage diagrams with copies of the official orders.  These orders were totally ignored.   Then redrew some of the disruptive diagrams in their own style and colours transposed onto mostly American vehicles, apparently the British didn't have any of their own.  To cap it they then applied a disruptive pattern from one tank type onto another type, it doesn't fit of course.  The ultimate was putting the pattern for the Greek based A10s onto a Crusader which never carried the design nor deployed to Greece.  Samples of their paint were sent to me for assessment.  None were accurate, not even close, which I reported back with larger samples.  New samples then arrived for testing, still not right.  In discussion I discovered that they were matching under 'daylight' lighting!  FGS are they not sharp or what?  I gave them up as a waste of my time, I told them that too.  Rant over.

 

regarding this, AK tie the book into their "Real Colors" range,  again

https://www.track-link.com/forums/site_blogs/33527

Quote

Subject: Re: Chapter 8 - Finished Model and Conclusions

Date:Dec 22, 2017 (03:17:25)

From:Mike Starmer

On the subject of AK paints. I have 7 samples of the Middle East colours for the desert and Italy. Greatly disappointing. Only Light Mud is reasonably close to the appearance of this in photographs but currently lacking a standard would do. Khaki Green 3 is far too light and ginger, lacks depth and the green tinge of the original. Slate 4 is too light and green, should be darker and more grey, Silver Grey 28 is not even close, being too light and very sickly yellow. Portland Stone is too light and lacks the slight green tinge it should have. Light Stone 61 is too dark and too red, Desert Pink is a bright shocking 'girly' hue nothing like SCC.11b , should be duller and earthy in appearance. SCC.14 Blue-black is dark but too red.

 

Note, the paint company were matching under 'daylight' lighting....   

 

I know this is the plane section, in case it's not clear, Mike Starmer is one of the authorities on the subject

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/

books

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_starmer.htm

AK interactive USN navy paint misses all the variations of USN blue....

see here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049797-us-navy-sea-blues/&do=findComment&comment=3249838

 

so,  perhaps  it might be worth waiting and seeing on this front before trusting AK...

 

PS 

And here's one on the German colors in the AK book

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ak-real-german-colors-disappointment-t58055-s20.html

and bear in mind the German section is half the book

 

Edited by Troy Smith
added a PS

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Wow. Just wow. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?

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Hello Troy,

thank`s for your posting. Now I will see se AK colours with a more critical eye.

Claus

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I've purchased 3/4 of the Real Colours RLM paints including their RLM83 blue which surprise surprise is almost a exact match for the RLM24 paint chip in the Merick/Kiroff Classic Publications book. So far i've used their RLM02 and RLM66 and both of those I can recommend as both match well with the paint chips just mentioned. 

My view on the Blue 83 is that it only existed on paper and that it was never actually produced and that the blue seen on the aircraft mentioned was actually RLM24 which was more than likely used in trials.

I certainly don't buy into the idea that the Dark Green labelled as RLM 83 was RLM 71. I'm happy to go along with Ullmann's idea in that it was another shade of RLM 81.

Until more concrete proof surfaces none of us will ever know for sure.

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