Consolidated B24J Liberator.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Graham, decals for both KG907 and KG904 are included in Hasegawa kit, and according to instructions both planes had Emerson nose turret. However, it is difficult to confirm this for KG904 from IWM photo, and I do not have Air-Britain publication you mentioned with the photo of KG907.

I dug out my old Academy/Minicraft B-24 J kit in 1/72 and was relieved that parts available include both Emerson and Consolidated nose turrets. However, I do vaguely remember something about national insignia on Azores based bombers, territory belonging to officially neutral Portugal. Will try to find more. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

Looking at the US serials, they are both Block 50-CF aircraft and as such should have the Emerson, which was applied to Block 45 onwards.  Block 35 ended with 44-10352.  Consolidated Mess fails to provide specific information on Block 40-CF but does quote the serials as 44-10353 to 44-10374.   KG904 was 44-10409.

[Jure Miljevic]

Duly noted. Still, I am leaning towards KG869, of which I found four or five photos. About Azores based aircraft: I had vague recollection about an article in which it had been stated that for a period of time patrol aircraft, operating from these islands, had their national insignia removed. Instead I came across the photo of US PB4Y-1 from VB-114 with both USAAF and RAF national (star and bars fore, and roundel aft of waist gunner's position), as well as squadron (both US number and RAF letter) markings. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

KG869 2V/B was 44-10379, supposedly a batch 45-CF aircraft but the photo I have to hand shows it with a Consolidated turret.  As do KG865 and KG870.

 

One reason for possible confusion on this matter is because Consolidated Mess is largely dedicated to USAAF aircraft, and these batches went almost if not entirely completely to the RAF.  One comment made of interest to modellers is that although aircraft with (supposedly) Emerson turrets these did have inward retracting nosewheel doors until Block 65-CF.  Which suggests to me that the reason for the change was not forced by fitting the Emerson turret, although normally linked to this.

[EwenS]

Graham

where are you getting your data for kg869?

Looking at both The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service and Joe Baughers database KG869 is listed as 44-10374. That makes it the last J-40-CF produced. KG870 is then 44-10375 the first J-45-CF. This is confirmed in both Joe Baughers database and  Consolidated Mess Appendix 2.

44-10379 is KG874 in both sources as a J-45-CF.

Page 194 of Liberator has photos of both KG869 2V-B and KG870 PP-H. The former has an A6B front turret while the latter appears to me to have an Emerson A15 turret corresponding with the change in block no. 

[Jure Miljevic]

Graham, in one of my previous posts I mentioned I have 1/72 Academy/Minicraft kit with optional Emerson and Consolidated front turrets, so any CC Liberator VI or VIII (apart from Ford produced aircraft, of course) will do. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

54 minutes ago, EwenS said:

Graham

where are you getting your data for kg869?

Looking at both The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service and Joe Baughers database KG869 is listed as 44-10374. That makes it the last J-40-CF produced. KG870 is then 44-10375 the first J-45-CF. This is confirmed in both Joe Baughers database and  Consolidated Mess Appendix 2.

44-10379 is KG874 in both sources as a J-45-CF.

Page 194 of Liberator has photos of both KG869 2V-B and KG870 PP-H. The former has an A6B front turret while the latter appears to me to have an Emerson A15 turret corresponding with the change in block no. 

 

You are right.  I was working from Oughton's The RAF in RAF and Commonwealth Service, but misread the 4 for a 9 when transferring to Consolidated Mess.   Mis culpa: I agree that KG869 is '374 and KG870 is '370. However the presence of the Consolidated turret on KG870 is enough to cast doubt on the implication that all batch 45-CF aircraft had the Emerson - Griffin uses the term "Beginning with the J-45-CF" " which presumably means "Beginning during the J-45-CF". 

 

As for KG870: I also thought that it had an Emerson at first, because of the vertical shape at the "front" of the turret when viewed from the starboard side.  However, that isn't so.  The turret is turned to port, and we are seeing the side and rear of the turret, including what I presume to be an entrance of some kind.  Had this been an Emerson turret facing forward, we would see different white metal fittings at the side (and it would be slightly higher?).

 

On the following page is KG880, but the turret and forward fuselage is covered.  The earliest serial shown with an Emerson turret on one page further :KG907  Quite a large gap in the batch.  (Unless there is one of this batch shown earlier in the book in a different section?)

[EwenS]

Sorry Graham but we will have to disagree about the forward turret of KG870.

I have a copy of the JaPo book on 311 squadron. This has a full page version of the picture in Oughton at a much better quality with a note it was most likely taken in the U.K. between 5/10/45 and 27/11/45 and it is very definitely an Emerson turret. The confusion arises because it has no guns in it in that picture. The turret is facing directly forwards and the glass side panel goes all the way to the turret base behind the metal cover of the trunnions of the guns as in the Emerson turret. The A6 turret series were half metal on the sides in the same area.

There are 2 other photos of the same aircraft both with guns installed. The detailed caption on one of those, a port side shot, and the very detailed appendices list it as an A15 Emerson.

[Graham Boak]

In which case, it is the earliest serial noted with an Emerson.