Colour confusion with black 8 me109e Libya

[sapperastro]

Hello all,

 

I am guessing many of you know what aircraft I am talking about here; the 'Black 8' Me109e in Libya with the coloured photo. I am making the airfix 1/72 version, but the photos clearly show a different set of colours to those airfix suggests. RLM 78 seems to be a far too dark, steel blue colour, while the RLM 78 is far too dark brown. Are that a borrowed Italian aircraft colour? As it looks virtually the same as the sandy shade they used on their birds. I am guessing the underside is RLM 76 or a faded 65?

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Greg (was it Greig? forgive me...),

 

I think RLM78 is the correct colour in reality but as is always the case when arguing about what is accurate in Luftwaffe terms, it may come down to who's match to what references are being compared.

 

Merrick & Kiroff's RLM78 isn't especially dark. It's usual for certain shades to wash out in this era of colour photography - I've seen it a lot on ships which have hard documented evidence of what colour is being seen but the photo film hasn't portrayed it well.

 

In this csse, we're under a harsh Mediterranean / North African sun which isn't kind to tone or hue unfortunately.

 

As for RLM 79, Merrick and Kiroff show 2 variants of it, one much lighter than the other. It has been hypothesised by others (i.e. not me - I have nothing to add on German shades) that the lighter RLM 79 may have been an Italian colour, but like so many things Luftwaffe, this seems to lack unilateral buy-in or support.

[Graham Boak]

Ken Merrick was the first to suggest the use of Italian colours, several decades back, and it was rapidly adopted and became a given, despite the lack of  any known direct connection.  More recently he discovered that there had been two different sets of colours for Africa, and that the first had indeed been a yellower sand.  Quite possibly that had been influenced by earlier Italian camouflage for the area, but were not the same.  Although as the Italians are recorded as using at least four different shades of yellow, presumably it will have been close to at least one of them.

 

PS The Italians also changed to  more hazelnut colour.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Graham Boak
Nexus a bit slow this morning.

[sapperastro]

Thanks gents,

 

I must admit to having a certain ignorance of this period with the luftwaffe in Africa, so I was making up my own theory with zero evidence on the basis of: The Germans were deployed very hastily to fulfill a promise by Der Fuehrer to his mate Il Duce, and as the vehicles, tanks, et al were supplied 'as is' (there was no camo paint or scheme initially provided for them, with all being in the European Dark Grey scheme and merely covered in African mud and dust as an impromptu camouflage). I extemporised that this would follow suit for the Luftwaffe as well, with keeping the undercarriage/sides the standard European 65 or 76, while throwing some borrowed Italian paint for the top and spraying mottles on it with either an Italian olive or other dark olive green RLM that was at hand. With the unexpected success of the Afrika Korps (they were merely sent as a blocking force to keep the Italians in play, not drive on into the middle east), more thought went into logistics, specialised supplies for Africa, etc.

 

So gents, I take it Colourcoats has good options for these? And if not (or, as is half the problem, they are not in stock here at the moment...), what enamel paint suggestions would you put fourth? I have access to Humbrol, Revell and Tamiya enamels.

 

Greg (its all good Jamie haha)

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks Graham. I have slightly edited my previous post to clarify that when I said "others" I only meant (people other than me - me claiming no particular knowledge of the origins of any Luftwaffe paints besides what I have read in other peoples' books).

 

Greg, ACLW18 matches Merrick and Kiroff's darker RLM79 chip, and shortly after taking over I added ACLW22 matched to the "RLM79 (Hell)" chip on the 1941 card. If Creative doesn't have that, you will find that the unpopular US30 - USN Buff virtually identical. That was infact one of my first mistakes in making a new shade that was more or less indistinguishable from one I already made! We live and learn! 😂

[JackG]

I don't know how accurate these digital samples are, but here are the four Italian aircraft colours as taken from the Stormo web site with their approximate FS values.  The center colour (20260) is the Italian AFV colour so just ignore that:

 

 

From http://www.rlm.at/download/rlmpdf_e.pdf     - the two shades of Luftwaffe RLM 79 Sand Yellow:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

15 hours ago, sapperastro said:

Hello all,

 

I am guessing many of you know what aircraft I am talking about here; the 'Black 8' Me109e in Libya with the coloured photo. I am making the airfix 1/72 version, but the photos clearly show a different set of colours to those airfix suggests. RLM 78 seems to be a far too dark, steel blue colour, while the RLM 78 is far too dark brown. Are that a borrowed Italian aircraft colour? As it looks virtually the same as the sandy shade they used on their birds. I am guessing the underside is RLM 76 or a faded 65?

 



Hi Greg

colours pics off the net are useful, to a point...   nut in this case, the undersides are almost certainly RLM 78,  why.... look at the fin swastika, it's been masked off with a square and the original underside colour surrounds it

12 hours ago, sapperastro said:

I extemporised that this would follow suit for the Luftwaffe as well, with keeping the undercarriage/sides the standard European 65 or 76, while throwing some borrowed Italian paint for the top and spraying mottles on it with either an Italian olive or other dark olive green RLM that was at hand. With the unexpected success of the Afrika Korps (they were merely sent as a blocking force to keep the Italians in play, not drive on into the middle east), more thought went into logistics, specialised supplies for Africa, etc.

examples exist of this,  asisbiz has a useful banner at the head of the JG 27 page

here https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG27.I-MTO.html

follow the link for  bigger images of the below

Black 3 at the right is a European camo,  note Black 6 has the masked out swastika again, the middle shot with the flag shows why the deep blue works on the tropics...

the shot of white 3 flying over the sand compared to black 3 shows why the use of specific paints as well...

 

there are also Ju-87 with the 70/71 opersprayed with random sand blotches

like the famous snake Stuka

 

HTH

T 

 

[sapperastro]

Aha, it all makes sense now. Thanks a lot to you both Jack and Troy, that certainly clears things up, and as said, clearly shows just how much colour is affected in both photography and under the harsh desert sun. Amazing.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the colours Jamie, I have an order to make. Perhaps you may need to manufacture a new tin of US navy buff 😆

 

And thanks too for your input Graham.