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Swastikas on model aircraft....what's behind that story..??


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May I recommend that you google 'swastika'. I began with finnish swastikas, and then Carlsberg and swastikas. As it is written, they were not a problem to anyone before 1945 (maybe 1933).

 

Therefore, should you be served a Carlsberg beer with a swastika: Don't drink it; it is too old!

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8 hours ago, Ratch said:

Once again you have failed to express yourself clearly, leading to a misunderstanding. There were many Airfix kits issued with swastikas.

Sorry, it’s in the post you quoted earlier. „Beginning with“, followed by a time span of some 8 years. In the next paragraph „new tools“. No idea which axe you have to grind ( well I have, actually), but I won’t continue this.

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19 hours ago, rio said:

The Finnish ones are reversed. So they are not a problem.

 

Rio

Finnish ones are also banned, so we see 2 types of roundels in decals provided in kits. For example, HAS B-239 has complete blue swastika on white disk, and blue cross on white disk while "arms" on clear sheet separately. Some kits print Finnish roundel or Nazi swastikas in pieces, 2 or 4, see ICM new Do17Z Finland service.

 

Some symbols have been banned for weird, ridiculous reasons. Or just someone's dislike.

 

Once I read on Taiwan forum, in 70-80s, KP MiG-15/17 kits' USSR and PLAAF decals would be cut off, even red star on boxart all painted with black. For China mainland, a pirated edition of Italeri Mirage 2000D deleted ROCAF version on decal sheet. You'll never know what will be banned here, neither do I....So lucky few modellers here... Gov. don't mention so little influence... even soJapanese plane and warship kits had been regarded as "something not right"  on media, FUMAN(a coopeation of Bandai in China) was penalized for producing "Fascism toys" in the 90s, just WWII German armour.

Edited by fernandocouto
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19 hours ago, Artie said:

The finnish ones, are not reversed, just parallel to the leading edges and in blue colour. It's not a matter of historic origins, but hysteric use of it. It's generally known that for a lot of ancient cultures, the swastika was a symbol.of good luck. My original question was related to other extremist symbols wich, for one reason or another are not just allowed, but apreciatted as well....

I know what you and NPL mean about the use of the reversed swastika as a good luck symbol in Asia, while in Singapore (great model shops) I was looking for some bling to take home for the wife, (to avoid seeing all the kits in my suitcase). The sales lass did not understand my mirth as she showed me some white gold and diamond reversed swastika ear studs.  I decided that a heart shaped pendant would avoid putting masking tape or camo netting on her ears! :rofl:

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1 hour ago, Retired Bob said:

I know what you and NPL mean about the use of the reversed swastika as a good luck symbol in Asia

It was a good luck symbol far far longer for the Indians and other Asian countries than it was a sign of hate and oppression for the Nazis, but the damage to its reputation is done.  The Far East didn't see much of the Nazi emblems during WWII, as it was mostly Japanese troops that were doing their best to ravage their homelands, so maybe that's why it still remains there?  It's such a shame it was subverted in that way, but there's nothing to be done about it now :shrug:

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Just to throw something in to muddy the waters; the swastika as used by the Nazis is actually banned in Northern Ireland and Eire, but neither country really enforces this unless they really have to.

N.I. has a 'Flags and Emblems' law quite distinct from the rest of the UK

The Rising Sun emblem of the old Japanese war regime is banned in Japan [afaik]  as is the fasces of fascist Italy

 

I have a Revell blue boxing of a Fokker D.VII with Finnish blue swastika national markings. This boxing was only available in Finland and Germany afaik. The instructions were in those two languages and no others. Therefore Revell Germany had no problem issuing a kit fairly recently with [Finnish] swastikas on the markings.

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I can understand the german sensitivity to Nazi symbols, not only because of the war, but even more so because of after the war.

Adenauer had to do a difficult balancing act as former nazis (does such a thing exist?) continued to be needed to run the government and industry. (if the brits, americans or russians hadn't nicked them yet...)

There were pleny of organisations lobbying on nazi's behalf.

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When my father was stationed in Germany 1950 to 54 he was surprised to find that security at the base was run by ex-SS officers in SS uniforms with the SS runes and swastika removed

The Allies used dis-armed Japanese soldiery to police the islands in the far east until the islands could do it for themselves

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It may be time to stop this theme now. We are moving into something that has little with modelling to do. If in doubt of the meaning for the Germans, look at Fawlty Towers, the episode named 'the Moose'.

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Sorry, I caused a thread drift too far.

If I may sumerise;

As modellers we are in a minor way historains and the keeper of history

Some of us are happy enough to include the forbidden markings on our models, some of us are not. 

If you do not want to put a swastika on your German subject I'll neither force you nor shout you out over it

 

I build WW1 and WW2 types. A fair number of WW1 pilots, on both sides, displayed a broken cross. 

When I build that WW1 type I include the swastika, not to be controversial but to depict the actual real markings.

 

I also make goods in leather. I sort of have an order for several Western style holsters, belts and arm cuffs [aka bracers] My client passed me several photos of real items he'd like me to make copies of. Included in those are photos of a holster and belt set and separately a pair of  bracers, covered in swastikas. These were made in New Mexico in the mid to late 1940s. I'll not copy the swastika but alter it. because I'm not making it historically accurate and have no need to cause controversy by having them on the belt/holster/bracer

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If you want to see a Blenheim with swastikas, I can recommend a visit to the Finnish Air Force Museum, beautifully restored. Here they have no problems with authenticity. 

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The reality is that if the law of a country restricts or bans public display of symbols or any other thing then if you reside in that country you either obey or take the consequences.

 

I have a large collection of models. There are aircraft with swastikas both German and Finnish, red stars both Russian and from other communist countries and there is a Curtiss Jenny which has the US red star marking adopted by Pershing in 1916. There are British and Commonwealth roundels, US stars and bars, Japanese Hinomarus and all sorts of different national crosses, circles triangles and what have you.

 

I understand that any one of these may be offensive to some people and equally the same marking may not - I build the models and give them the appropriate markings.

 

But I am alive to the fact that the swastika on the tail of my Luftwaffe aircraft while just a historically correct insignia to me, would have a much more traumatic significance to a survivor of Auschwitz. That is the reality of political and national symbols. Just as a red star may have a traumatic meaning to a survivor of the Gulag, or the Hinomaru to a survivor of Changi or the Burma railroad.

 

It's a complex and sometimes painful history we have and there is no escaping the effects that it has.

Edited by MilneBay
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10 hours ago, MilneBay said:

It's a complex and sometimes painful history we have and there is no escaping the effects that it has.

Yes, time. In my generation -- I was born four days after the Japanese surrender -- we never get rid of the war. It is still there because we know so many that were directly involved. It is worse to the Germans because the war generation but also the hext and next generation became tramatized. The movie Er ist wieder da! about Hitler wakening up in our time, and impossible to get rid of in spite of being shot, because as he says: I am in your head: You cannot get rid of me. 

 

But in a hundred years ...

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On 12/21/2018 at 2:33 PM, Black Knight said:

I have a Revell blue boxing of a Fokker D.VII with Finnish blue swastika national markings. This boxing was only available in Finland and Germany afaik. The instructions were in those two languages and no others. Therefore Revell Germany had no problem issuing a kit fairly recently with [Finnish] swastikas on the markings.

I have no proof whatsoever, but to my understanding the FAF boxings of Revell kits (at least Brewster, Curtiss Hawk and Hurricane besides D.VII) were only intended for Finnish market, even if they had instructions in German. Unfortunately I have no idea where I placed my D.VII, so I cannot look for clues, but considering how strict Germans are about swastikas, I'd be very surprised if they actually sold those kits there.

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I have just had a good read through this very interesting thread. Local laws aside, I believe it is all down to the conscience of the individual modeller. That's how I operate at least. However, the main reason for this post is that I think that all the contributors to this thread are to be congratulated for the civilized, sensitive and responsible way in which they have handled such a potentially volatile subject. Its a fine example of BM at its best. Well done as well to @Mike for allowing the discussion to continue as there have been some important clarifications as to what is and what is not allowed in different parts of the world in an age when modellers displaying overseas is becoming ever more common. 

 

Martian 👽

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Speaking to a German modeller at Telford his kits had them on for Histrolical significance and he said this was OK. Surprised me as I thought it was a complete no no.

 

Julien

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Digressing slightly for a moment. Is 3rd reich music on YouTube and the like blocked in Germany and is it an offence to play it?Perhaps one of our German members would tell me.

 

As for my feelings I am  sorry that the sins of former generations still sit uneaserly on today’s.

 

(speaking as someone who was nearly killed in the womb by a V2 that hit the buildings next door to the hospital while my mother was in labour)

 

Edited by paul178
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On 20/12/2018 at 11:03, NPL said:

The Japanese have kept their meetballs also on present planes

However, in the "Fallout" series of video games, the "Fat Man" mini nuke launcher has a different name.

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7 hours ago, paul178 said:

(speaking as someone who was nearly killed in the womb by a V2 that hit the buildings next door to the hospital while my mother was in labour)

 

My Mother Lived in London during the Blitz. Never had a problem with me building Heinkels with Swastica "they mad a funny thrumming noise when they came over" or V1s " you used to look up and wait for the engine to cut out and then run" or even a V2 " one of those hit the factory Grandma worked in. Went in for morning shift and it was just a crater".

Context is everything, if something offends me, I will say so, but I do not wish for someone else, however well meaning, to be offended on my behalf, or berate me for not being offended enough.

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 2:56 PM, Artie said:

Ok, but I wondered about what happens in any other countries, regarding other totallitary symbols.....a polish friend once told me that comunist symbols were forbidden in Poland....is that true?

In short: it is forbidden by low to propagate  nazi and communist ideology in Poland. Public presentation of scale models in historically accurate markings is not considered to be a propagation of these ideas. So far at least ;).

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Related to the OP's original question, if anyone is interested in this subject more broadly, I can wholeheartedly recommend The Myth of the Eastern Front: The Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture by Ronald Smelser and Edward J. Davies. I was reminded of the book because Smelser & Davies go into quite a lot of depth discussing the - in their view - dangerous tendency in certain circles to depoliticize WW2, a conflict that was, as one reviewer of the book accurately put it, in its essence "a war of racial subjugation and conquest".

 

While the book doesn't provide an answer to the OP's original question, it does provide a compelling (if not entirely perfect) answer to what could be considered the reverse: why are the German forces of WW2 (in particular the SS) romanticized in American popular culture?

 

Available on Amazon :)https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Eastern-Front-Nazi-Soviet-American/dp/0521712319

 

 

 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, elger said:

why are the German forces of WW2 (in particular the SS) romanticized in American popular culture?

Up to this point I had chosen not to comment on this thread. But im a bit confused and offended by your statement ? Please explain Why exactly you think Americans romanticize the “SS” in pop culture ? Is it just a general assumption ? 

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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On 12/19/2018 at 1:05 PM, Artie said:

 

In logic, should not the symbol of the hammer and sickle be forbidden as well?

 

In revisionist alt-right logic, yes.

 

Gemany has forbidden the public display of Nazi insignia for obvious historical reasons.

 

Poland has several issues with Soviet Russia and also made a catholic-alt-right turn. 

 

Vedran, from a country where revisionists are also on the rise, but not for long.

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1 hour ago, elger said:

 

While the book doesn't provide an answer to the OP's original question, it does provide a compelling (if not entirely perfect) answer to what could be considered the reverse: why are the German forces of WW2 (in particular the SS) romanticized in American popular culture?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because of the dark side of the force! Human beings are attracted by what is forbidden. Plain pstychology -- and it is not different in other places from the USA. 

 

Gaston, from a French cartoon series of the same name, builds a Bf 110 and puts swastikas on it remarking that these markings make the model more attractive, and then he places small live bombs under its wing to bomb the person in the next office. 

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15 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Up to this point I had chosen not to comment on this thread. But im a bit confused and offended by your statement ? Please explain Why exactly you think Americans romanticize the “SS” in pop culture ? Is it just a general assumption ? 

 

Dennis

 

Reenactment community?

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