Swastikas on model aircraft....what's behind that story..??

[elger]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Up to this point I had chosen not to comment on this thread. But im a bit confused and offended by your statement ? Please explain Why exactly you think Americans romanticize the “SS” in pop culture ? Is it just a general assumption ? 

 

Dennis

Well - that's what the book I recommended is about. I hesitated mentioning it since it's a sensitive issue and I don't want to start a debate about this - I just wanted to recommend this book for anyone who's interested in the phenomenon. But to elaborate a bit (and again, not to start a debate), it's connected to the "Clean Wehrmacht" myth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht)

 

The point the book makes is that especially in the United States, the white-washing of German war crimes especially on the Eastern Front was very effective. This was partly the result of Cold War politics - post-war Germany needed to be perceived as an ally against the Soviet Union. Many former high-ranking German officers were given a platform to tell "their side". Hence we have the myth of apolitical German soldiers - like Gudarian and Rommel. Soldiers "just doing their duty" who "didn't really care about Hitler" and myths like that. They are apolitical in popular culture - not so much in reality. Another connected phenomenon is the myth in popular history of German technological superiority ("invincible" Tiger tanks, etc).

 

While indeed this fascination with the "dark side" in general and Nazi-Germany in particular can be found anywhere, the book is written with the convincing premise that in America more so than anywhere else in the West, there are certain niche groups that do somewhat fetishise the Nazi forces. One example they cite is that there are nine or ten times more groups reenacting Wehrmacht/SS unites compared to groups that reenact say American army units. The authors point out that these groups reenacting certain SS units claim that they don't share their ideology (which I think is true) these groups say they they do what they do for educational purposes. The authors point out however, that if all they do is educate themselves and others about uniforms, medals, and other paraphernalia - they actively ignore the atrocities committed by these units. This, the authors claim, is dangerous: to only emphasize the comradery, the fight against all odds, the emblems, the uniforms etc ignores the political reality that all German fighting units were starting, sustaining, and prolonging a war with racial subjugation and ultimately the Holocaust at its core.

 

The book isn't perfect - for one thing it ignores Soviet atrocities committed on the Eastern front, but on the other hand, that's another can of worms.

 

From the book's introduction (p 4, 5-6):

 

Quote

Chapter 3 [examines] the so-called Halder group which, commissioned by the U.S. Army, provided us with hundreds of studies, especially of the war in Russia, as seen from the German perspective. We, who were facing a possible land war with the Soviet Union, were an eager audience. Later, ties were cemented with former German officers through a complex network of relationships throughout the 1950s and 1960s, particularly among the Bundeswehr, the West German army, and U.S. Forces in Germany, and the myth achieved wider popularity (...).

Chapter 4 examines how the myth of the "clean" Wehrmacht in the East during the Second World War was brought to the general public in the United States, by a series of widely selling memoirs, written by former German generals such as Erich von Manstein, Heinz Guderian, Hans Rudel, Hans von Luck, and others, as well as novels, such as those by Sven Hassel, and popular histories like those written by Paul Carell. The chapter also debunks many of the myths, especially those propagated by Manstein and Carell. It concludes by examining the revival of Wehrmacht popularity, especially in the U.S. Military after the debacle in Vietnam. We felt, once again, that the Germans had valuable things to tell us, both regarding how to maintain the integrity of an army in wartime and how to defend against a possible Russian attack in the revived Cold War of the 1980s. This new popularity of and respect for the Wehrmacht seeped out into the broader culture and created the foundation for popular activities that fascinate several American subcultures to the current day - such as wargaming, reenacting, Internet websites, and chatrooms.

(...)

Chapter 6 examines the gurus. These authors, mostly but not exclusively American, have picked up and disseminated the myths of the Wehrmacht in a wide variety of popular publications that romanticize the German struggle in Russia. The gurus, men like Mark Yerger, Richard Landwehr, Marc Rijkmanspoel, and Franz Kurowski, (...) combine a painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals, with romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism. There is little in the way of historical context in the writing of these men. They honor particularly the soldiers of the Waffen-SS, without bothering to tell us of the war of racial enslavement and annihilation these men pursued in the East.

In Chapter 7, we examine the popular culture of what we have termed the "romancers," that is, a wide subculture of Americans who have embraced the message of the gurus and indulge in wargaming and Internet chatting to a degree that reveals an identification with the values of courage, honor, and self-sacrifice they see in the German soldier of World War Two. the romancers also show an alienation from what is viewed as the crass materialism, selfish egotism, and moral ambiguities of the current world.

The book concludes with Chapter 8, which investigates similar people who choose to more actively carry out their fantasies of the "clean" Wehrmacht by donning the uniforms of their heroes and spending weekends and vacations in reenactments. They, like the gurus and other "romancers," also insist on authenticity in uniforms, equipment and organization. One authenticity they lack is that of historical accuracy; they also dream of a different outcome of World War Two, if only the mistakes by Hitler, but never the generals, could have been avoided.

 

Again, this and other points are elaborated on very thoroughly and much more nuanced in the book - so if you're interested in the subject I recommend it.

 

I thought that for an academic publication it was a bit of a page turner

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, dragonlanceHR said:

 

Reenactment community?

Hello @elger ... I can understand that, but i really disagree that they're truly romanticizing the “SS”. I would call them re-enactors. Much the same as those here in america that recreate confederate troops for our civil war re-enactments ? I doubt they all romanticize the south and slavery ? I looked into the ww2 reenactnent groups about 20 years ago to possibly join. They are very adamant that if youre pro nazi you're not welcome. This may have changed but doubt it. They're strictly there to reenact history. You cant recreate a part of history without both sides. With a better explanation i thank you. 

 

Dennis

 

EDIT: the reason most of the people i talked to answered with. They joined the “german” side because the fact the uniforms weren't as boring as green with more green. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[PhoenixII]

49 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

......................They joined the “german” side because the fact the uniforms weren't as boring as green with more green. 

Hi Dennis,

you're right there, the Germans were the fore runners........Grey, Gray and more grey!.......

Just saying, like!

[Retired Bob]

5 minutes ago, PhoenixII said:

Hi Dennis,

you're right there, the Germans were the fore runners........Grey, Gray and more grey!.......

 Just saying, like!

I think the black uniforms  of SS, the various camouflaged patterned uniforms and all the blingy badges are a draw to some.  Not my thing I must say, and I have read quite a few books from grass roots level up to Generals and I have to agree with elger, the atrocities are ignored or at least glossed over.  There is no simple answer, historically correct models or airbrush history to sanitise the atrocities of the past.  But how far back do you go, genocide was not just a product of the 20th century, do you ban the sword and sandal re -enactors because throughout history the winning side tended to put the losing side to the sword or slavery, men, women and children killed for religious beliefs or land,  that is no different to the German persecution of the Jews or the expansion for "living space" perhaps we should all take up knitting, but not with sharp needles. 

[Bozothenutter]

I was at Militracks 2018, only because the Saumur King Tiger was there.

Being an axis vehicle event only I had certain prejudices about the visiting public.

They turned out to be partially true.

I'm of asian decent, and had quite a few instances of hearing derogatory remarks being made about me and my kids.

Quite unsettling being born and raised dutch.

Visitors could be seperated into three groups:

- Tank nerds (WOT mostly)

- day trippers

- neo nazi sympatyzers

The last group were recognizable by things like tattoo's T-shirts etc.

So yeah glorification and adoration of Nazi's is still alive and well....

[NPL]

11 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

...

So yeah glorification and adoration of Nazi's is still alive and well....

We have these reactions to other people all over Europe today, even in Germany. I hope that modelling is not forwarding it.

The reason why I when young made a lot of German stuff was historical: They fought so well, although for the worst case ever. Such a waste of young men. Clostermann has it right when he is musing over the death of Nowotny, especially that the German fighter pilots look so similar to us. What happened after the war illustrates this with those famous friendships, e.g., between Tuck, Bader and Galland. The postwar career of Johannes Steinhoff also tells it story as he ended up as the highest ranking air force officer in European NATO, although he had more than a hundred allied place on his account. 

 

If somebody makes Wittmann's tank, it is not to support his case but as a memory to a great soldier. Same can be said about making Rudel's Stukas. 

 

For the neo-nazis there is probably no hope. Maybe a reenactment could help: A day in Ausschwitz reenacted with them as the victims? But let us build their planes and tanks as a memory to those who fought and not as symbols of a hatefull regime. 

 

 

[Hook]

On 12/19/2018 at 2:25 PM, tempestfan said:

The law quoted by 06/24 exists like that for decades, however, it was extended to kits only by a 1979 Supreme Court ruling concerned with the Matchbox SdKfz 251 with the large Fliegersichtkennung on the hood.

 

This comment prompted me to visit Scalemates - the first issue Matchbox had the offending flag, but this was quickly omitted from the second boxing on.

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/130331-matchbox-pk-83-hanomag-sdkfz-251-1

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[nheather]

Not read the whole thread so apologies if I am repeating.

 

Firstly, the idea of a blanket ban of Swastikas in public display in Germany isn’t true.  I believe if there is good reason then they are allowed.  For example, I visited the Berlin technology museum in December (fantastic collection of trains and pretty good collection of aircraft).  Plenty of German aircraft all displaying Swastikas.  Even where they had models on display, they had Swastikas too.

 

So I have heard that where a Swastika is used to portray historic events it is allowed - which is why you can see it in TV dramas and movies.  But then you get inconsistencies creeping in - “but models are accurate reproductions of actual aircraft so why can’t they have Swastikas” and “what about the film Iron Sky, that had Swastikas but you can hardly call that historically accurate”.

 

With models I think there are two sensitivies driving the exclusion of Swastikas (1) models are sold in toy shops and commonly regarded as toys for children.  I think this is also the reason why you never see Swastikas in computer games - they often use a symbol that reminds you of a Swastika. (2) they are stickers or decals so can be put to other uses and used inappropriately.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

Edited January 4, 2019 by nheather

[anj4de]

Being from Germany...I really do not care! 😉 I simply buy my kits abroad or (the bad boy I am) I order full swastika sheets aftermarket!

 

cheers

Uwe