Swastikas on model aircraft....what's behind that story..??

[Artie]

First thing first: I'm not intending to open the can or worms or start a political argument here. Just want to know what's behind this story....if the mods feel I shouldn't write a word about it, please remove the thread.

A few days ago, a german tourist walked in our local hobby shop. It turned out that he was a modeller, and told us that he couldn't show any Luftwaffe kit with a Swastika on her tail. It's absolutely forbidden to show them in Germany, for what we understood....his limited english and our inexistent german didn't help at all, no to mention spanish...!!!! Not my problem at all, because I don't use to build Luftwaffe subjects, but this story has aroused my curiosity.

He was surprised because we use to display our finished models in the shop cabinets, and there are lots of Luftwaffe subjects there.....with no problem at all, except for the usual comment such as "see, a nazi plane", when a passer by points at a Finnish Buffalo....

In logic, should not the symbol of the hammer and sickle be forbidden as well?....a polish friend of my brother told us that it's forbidden in Poland...Is that true, or just a fake story?????

I've seen lots of models from shows in central Europe where both nazi and comunist paraphernalia is shown....no problems at all.

Here in Spain, you can build a SCW plane with all the emblems and symbols, and nothing happens. Well, maybe some people complain for political reasons, but that's all. Not modellers, of  course, ususally passers by....

 

Best regards..

[Toryu]

You cannot display them in public in Germany. Nazi symbols of all kind are forbidden. Most kits even come with the swastika scratched out.

Not a problem, though, in your private home, but on exhibitions swastika are hidden under camouflage nets or similar.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Toryu

[WV908]

I tend to just go by historical accuracy. If the real aircraft had them, my model gets them. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by WV908

[tank152]

I've got absolutely no qualms whatsoever about displaying Swastikas or any other Nazi symbols on any of my models.

I'm with WV908, if the real thing had them, so does my model.

[Skodadriver]

This is something we should leave to the Germans. My sister has lived in Germany for over 30 years and is married to an intelligent, articulate, educated, politically aware and thoroughly decent German. He gets pretty hacked off with the idea that his generation (he was born in 1958) should be held accountable for what their parents and grandparents did but, that said, he completely supports the banning of Nazi symbols in Germany as do most Germans. It may seem petty or trivial to us in the UK but for many Germans it is a matter of strong principle.  

 

For obvious reasons Germany is a special case. I don't model military subjects but as far as I know nobody is trying to stop modellers outside Germany displaying the swastika to their hearts' content.

[06/24]

The law in Germany prohibits display of the swastika (and some other symbols) other than in tightly controlled circumstances (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a)

 

There's clearly a debate that could be had about whether a model as a historic presentation should have them or not, but it’s no surprise if German modellers do not choose to risk being seen as breaking the law. Similarly, no surprise that models sold, or potentially sold, on the German market do not include swastikas.

[Graham Boak]

As said, individually there's no problem, but if you are a company hoping to sell into Germany, then there can be no public display of the swastika, nor should it be present on toys - which is how models are considered.  So the mass-production side of the hobby plays safe and excludes it generally rather than having to produce specific items for one market.  Even the low-production side plays safe and omits it on box art, and/or provides some "split transfers", so that no over-enthusiastic customs official or concerned citizen can cause serious damage to their cash flow and thus commercial existence.  I've seen it said that in Germany some allowance is made, in model shows and the like, for the appearance of a swastika where it can be regarded as a historical representation.

[Steve Coombs]

It's an anti-constitutional symbol and is banned in public in Germany. What you display in your glass cabinet at home is your own affair, but may well raise an eyebrow from an unsuspecting visitor.

At the newsagents I often find pages of Airfix Model World or similar stuck together because someone has literally blacked out the offending symbol with a marker pen and not waited for the ink to dry properly. Perhaps I should subscribe!

For some strange reason, old photographs of vehicles with the problematic symbol may be published unedited in historical magazines, but any artwork either omits it or has an element of it removed.

Probably a good thing I don't build too many targets.

[Folkbox1]

How about non-Nazi swastikas, such as on Finnish airplanes.  Is this banned in Germany too or would modellers in Germany avoid it just in case?

[Steve Coombs]

The Finnish Gladiator I saw at a show a couple of months back had a scale tarpaulin covering the fuselage marking, just to be on the safe side.

A model Albatros with a similar marking was also covered up.

[tempestfan]

The law quoted by 06/24 exists like that for decades, however, it was extended to kits only by a 1979 Supreme Court ruling concerned with the Matchbox SdKfz 251 with the large Fliegersichtkennung on the hood. May I point out that the only major European kit companies to more or less consistently having  included Swastikas in their kits were Frog, Heller and Matchbox. No Airfix subject released before the 1971 (or 2?) 1/24 109 featured it; the Revell H-615 190  early boxings even explained on the instructions why they omitted it. That is for all markets, not Germany only.

Given the developments in some parts of this country in recent years, that law is fully justified IMO, even at the price it may be risky to show a kit in public with its fin „graced“ by that symbol.

[tempestfan]

12 minutes ago, Folkbox1 said:

How about non-Nazi swastikas, such as on Finnish airplanes.  Is this banned in Germany too or would modellers in Germany avoid it just in case?

Legally not, but you‘d argue uphill with a show organizer or a state attorney. 

[Folkbox1]

Ta, I was just curious 🙂

[Agent K]

Purely case of legality (or not) in Germany. It's a simple as that.

[Artie]

Ok, but I wondered about what happens in any other countries, regarding other totallitary symbols.....a polish friend once told me that comunist symbols were forbidden in Poland....is that true?

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

some people here in Finland managed to publish "a study" that "proves" that the old Finnish national insignia -blue swastika- after all is related to Third Reich. Oh dear... And now there is an ongoing discussion whether the Finnish swastika should be banned totally. That means in museums, scale models and so on.

 

The World is full of signs and symbols that more than hurt the feelings of some group of people (whether that is a nation or some smaller entity). Soviet Union attacked on Finland twice even without a declaration of war and yet they are not considered as war criminals. I placed red stars on my Fencer model although the Soviets shot to death my grandfather's brother during peace time. But I wanted my model to be as accurate as possible and I can live with that.

 

Some years ago I was involved in an aerial survey project in Northern Ireland. The English owner of our Twin Otter attached large Union Jack stickers on the wings and fin of the plane. Local people weren't too enthusiastic about that but then they realized we were Finnish the athmosphere relaxed. But flying at 100 feet AGL above Armagh was scary.

 

Antti

 

 

[Agent K]

I believe Poland has banned communist and facists symbols, so yes, it's a case of legality there too.

[B-17 man]

For what it’s worth, I’ve seen pics from aviation museums in Germany that have 109's, 190's etc with swastikas on the tail. It can be displayed in Germany but context of how it’s displayed goes into it. 

[alex]

Yes, if it's in a historical or educational content, it's legal to display them. Museums fall into this category. And a court once decided, that a model exhibition is neither. That's the reason that on pictures of the original it's still there, but may not be displayed on models.

 

Alex

[Agent K]

Yes, you'll notice on the airfix boxes they don't display it on the overseas ones, and that then extends to the, one run for all countries calendar each year which has the swastikas removed.

[Sturmovik]

3 hours ago, Artie said:

In logic, should not the symbol of the hammer and sickle be forbidden as well?

The crimes of the Communists and the Red Army are often ignored because they were the "good guys."

I was also afraid of using the Swastika on my planes because I thought people might think wrongly of me, but I stopped worrying about that two months ago and put the Swastika on all the models that came with it. However, if it doesn't come in the kit (whether complete or in halves), I'll just leave the model as is.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Sturmovik

[bzn20]

Airfix didn't have Swastikas on the box art or decals . Has that ever been changed ?

[Sturmovik]

11 minutes ago, bzn20 said:

Airfix didn't have Swastikas on the box art or decals . Has that ever been changed ?

Their first issue of the 1:24 Ju 87 had the Swastika on the box.

[AWFK10]

9 minutes ago, bzn20 said:

Airfix didn't have Swastikas on the box art or decals . Has that ever been changed ?

They did include swastikas for a time in the 1970s - for example, see the box art on the original release of their 1978 Stuka, compared with the later versions where it's disappeared again along with the falling bombs and crashing aircraft. The bombs and explosions made a comeback but the swastikas didn't.

[NPL]

Advice to all of you: Be careful when you drink Carlsberg beer. The two elephants at the entrance to the brewery in Copenhagen have huge swastikas on their sides! And the classical strong beer is the 'elephant beer', so be careful-

 

By the way, I also believe that swastikas are forbidden i Russia and am quite sure that the Austrians are not happy about them.