SAAF Furies

[leyreynolds]

The recent SAAF Fighter Colours book describes the Furies as having "tropical radiators and oil coolers". Any idea what this entails please?

[72modeler]

See the link below- scroll down to the text on use by South Africa, but no photos of the modifications made. If I can find any photos, I will post them-sorry my SAAF references aren't that extensive, I'm afraid.

Mike

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234961485-hawker-fury-1st-sqdn-saaf-mombasa-kenya-june-1940/

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Looking at the SA colours booklet and the Warpaint on the Fury, there seems to be no obvious difference between the standard Fury and the ones in SA.  Presumably this, and the uprated engine, were the cause of the overheating problems mentioned in the other thread.

[Smithy]

SAAF Furies had the Kestrel VI engine and they were plagued by overheating under tropical operational conditions. As a result additional "slots" were cut out of the engine cowlings to provide more airflow and improve cooling.

[Graham Boak]

Eventually, as discussed in the other thread, but not as delivered.  Unfortunately the clearest photos in the book are of the aircraft just after delivery, but even the clearer camouflaged examples show no obvious signs of such slots.  Clearer ones would help.  However a small inlet is seen on Hartbeests, just above and before the wing, as they would presumably have experienced similar problems.  On RAF Audaxes you will sometimes see the top cowling pierced by a row of holes (or louvres) but there seems to be no signs of that on SAAF Furies or Hartbeests - although as the booklet is about fighters we are lucky to get any pictures of Hartbeests at all  (initial equipment of 41 Sq).

[Smithy]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Eventually, as discussed in the other thread, but not as delivered.

 

The OP seems to make no specific mention of inquiring as to how they were delivered. Rather he was asking whether tropical radiators and equipment were fitted. It's probably arguable that the on squadron modification of the cowling slots are not only pertinent to the discussion but perhaps useful to the original poster especially if he was unaware of this peculiarity to SAAF Furies.

[Graham Boak]

Indeed, but the delivery views are pertinent in that they show that there were no obvious external difference from the standard then, a fairly important point for modelling.  Plus whatever mods were carried out would be externally visible, so photos of the initial standard would be helpful to compare with the modified parts - were there any photos showing these.  Of which there are none in this book at least.  It may be worthwhile considering other sources such as SAAF Squadrons or the old Air Enthusiast article.  (Issue 1, IIRC?)  What is lacking so far is information of exactly when these mods were carried out.  A new radiator would be a fairly major mod, and likely to disturb the external shape of the radiator cowling, which it does not appear to have happened (all the better for modelling as it becomes irrelevant).  It isn't something that could be done up in East Africa, whereas cutting a few cooling holes could.

[Smithy]

Quite. But perhaps the OP isn't as blessed with such a broad and encyclopedic range of knowledge about the subject, and for that reason alone, information concerning how the aircraft had been modified to operate in tropical conditions was in some minuscule way useful, relevant, or at the least, of note. Obviously to an expert such as yourself information of this nature is no doubt redundant but perhaps for some others it can add to their understanding.

[Graham Boak]

A mere statement isn't a lot of help for modelling these changes, and the OP was well aware because that's exactly the subject raised by Ley in his first post.  One question that needed investigation was whether the tropical radiators and possibly other mods were on the aircraft from the start of their life in SA.  The answer appears to be no - but then negative information at least closes down avenues of investigation.  |It would have helped if the photos did show features unique to SAAF Furies, but I don't think so.  Perhaps a more observant or better-informed person may be able to point out some way in which they do.

 

And let's be honest about it: there are a lot of anecdotal statements that have been made about aircraft in WW2 that are don't hold up to study.  I'm not suggesting that these mods were that; they seem all too likely and sensible, but let's see the evidence.  Photos are all we've got to go on, and (so far) they don't show anything.  I'm sorry if this unfortunate truth upsets you but that's not my problem.

[Smithy]

A statement on an internet forum from a complete stranger won't upset me in the slightest. I still stand by my assumption that the mention of the cowling modifications is relevant to the discussion. You think not, which is your opinion as much as mine is mine. The real worth is in whether the OP finds any information useful or not because at the end of the day, the thread was started by him to seek information I'd imagine and I suppose it's what he finds useful which ultimately matters.

 

I'm sure you have already got them off your bookshelf and if you have I'm sure you can confirm, but I could have sworn one of Alex Crawford's books or one of the images from the official SA government history of the war showed the cowling slots. I'll get mine out from storage tomorrow if you have trouble finding your copies. As you say photos are the best thing.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Smithy

[leyreynolds]

I had assumed that the SAAF Furies had radiators that differed from RAF aircraft in some way (see original post) but cooling slots make sense. I have a vague memory of photo's of Audax's (in Iraq?) with slots in the cowls but can't find the reference at the moment. None of the Fury artwork/photo's I have see show them unhappily.

Edited December 17, 2018 by leyreynolds

[dogsbody]

A SAAF Fury here: Photon #4

 

http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/peter-metelerkamp-1.php

 

 

Chris

[Hardcastle]

Maybe @Stefaan can weigh in on this one chaps. He is based here in South Africa and I suspect has access to the museum data (if I remember correctly).

 

I too can check later for you - I am out of town for the week, but when back home in Durban will contact my buds at the museum / check my references on this.

 

Tim

South Africa

[Graham Boak]

I have never said that it was irrelevant.  This would be a bit difficult as it was the very point of the first posting.  However before modeling an aircraft in East Africa it would be interesting, I'd have thought, to check on the status of the airframe before any such additions, not just assuming that it was the same as the UK-based aircraft.  The aircraft did serve with the SAAF before being deployed north. Was this problem discovered early and modifications produced before the deployment? If so, were additional changes made in theatre?

 

In modelling terms, is it possible to produce an accurate model of a Fury in this campaign straight from the kit?  Or is it necessary to make some changes even from the start? Could there be an option for different stages in the campaign?  It is not a simple matter of black and white.  It may just collapse into the two options of factory standard and fully modified, but that's yet to be demonstrated.  If we are dealing with in-fieldmods, then there remains the possibility of differences between individual airfrsmes at different times.

 

I've looked in McLain's Squadrons of the SAAF and Louw & Bouwer's SAAF at War.  Without success.  Potgieter & Steenkamp has a lovely in flight picture of 206, but as delivery, the same as dogsbody's reference shows. I don't have the MMP.  Yes, if that shows something please do describe it.

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

I will go and see if I can dig up close ups of the Fury radiator up North.

I have never seen any reference to formal mods to radiators/fuselages in any research documents I came across.

May still be there in archives waiting to be discovered. 

Will get back when I went through my data.

Stefaan

[Graham Boak]

I hauled out heavy boxes of books to find the first Air Enthusiast, but the one I remembered was the third.  Sadly although the Wilf Hardy painting on the cover dealt with Furies in East Africa, there were no photos in the magazine itself.  What was visible in the painting however were three small louvres just above the small scoop before the leading edge.  I've seen these on Hartbeests but they are not on the Furies as delivered.   I agree that detail in such paintings cannot be relied upon, but it is a bit of a hint.

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

Had a quick look at my Fury gen, not much of help except for one photo showing the front of a cooler that appears to have been modified.

Can not find any fuselage shots that has any other vents, cut aways. Also no documents showing a maintenance report that suggest any modifications. Two photos uploaded, one with a standard cooler, and one with a modified inlet taken straight from the front. Both the photos surroundings suggest that they were taken up North. Hope it helps.

 

 

 

 

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

Piet van Schalkwyk is joining Britmodeller and waiting in the waiting room.

He has sent this as evidence

 

From the 2 Squadron War Diary (Detachment based at Nanyuki) the following is noted on the Fury overheating problems:

 

16-1-1941            The Furies at Lokitang are boiling before they reach 3000 ft  (The outside temperature reached as high as 130°/ 54,4 °C).

 

17-1-1941            All Furies grounded except in an emergency.  They will be brought in from the outstations in two’s for a modification that may keep the temp a bit lower.

 

20-1-1941            Capt Colenbrander’s Fury modified by adding two extra elements on the oil cooler.  The Fury was test flown and overheated beautifully, the engineers were disgusted.

 

21-1-1941            The Fury was taken to East Leigh.  They are going to put eleven elements in the cooler, this mean seven extra elements.  They have also cut holes in the cowling and fitted cups over them to catch air to cool the engine. 

 

25-1-1941            Capt Colenbrander returned to the squadron from East Leigh.  The new element seem to be working fairly satisfactory.

 

--

Piet van Schalkwyk

Golden Eagle Productions

[email protected]

[Charlie Hugo]

18 minutes ago, Stefaan said:

Hi Guys.

Had a quick look at my Fury gen, not much of help except for one photo showing the front of a cooler that appears to have been modified.

Can not find any fuselage shots that has any other vents, cut aways. Also no documents showing a maintenance report that suggest any modifications. Two photos uploaded, one with a standard cooler, and one with a modified inlet taken straight from the front. Both the photos surroundings suggest that they were taken up North. Hope it helps.

 

 

 

 

Faan

You sure these are Furies? Bomb racks under the wings. First time I have seen that on a Fury. Rams Horn exhausts on the top pic, also looks like top wing has sweep back.

In answer to Grahams question e the MMP book, all it says are that slots were cut into the cowling to aid cooling, nothing further about radiators nor oil coolers. One thing the later Nimrod had an oil cooler mounted under the cowling but thus far have not seen anything like that on SAAF Furies

[Charlie Hugo]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I hauled out heavy boxes of books to find the first Air Enthusiast, but the one I remembered was the third.  Sadly although the Wilf Hardy painting on the cover dealt with Furies in East Africa, there were no photos in the magazine itself.  What was visible in the painting however were three small louvres just above the small scoop before the leading edge.  I've seen these on Hartbeests but they are not on the Furies as delivered.   I agree that detail in such paintings cannot be relied upon, but it is a bit of a hint.

Graham

It seems as if those louvres may be Fury II type cowlings. I see them on photos of 202 and 206 but not other aircraft

Edited December 18, 2018 by Charlie Hugo

[Stefaan]

Hi Charlie.

Looked to see if they look like Hartbees, but the site and shape still look like Furies. Furies went to 43 sqdn later and used as armed recce/co op with Hartbees.

I could be wrong, but they were with Fury photos from albums working on Furies.

Stefaan

[Graham Boak]

They look like Furies to me too.  The light store carriers were standard issue and seen on many RAF aircraft - even some on Hurricanes in the desert as the first Hurribombers.

[Charlie Hugo]

1 hour ago, Stefaan said:

Hi Charlie.

Looked to see if they look like Hartbees, but the site and shape still look like Furies. Furies went to 43 sqdn later and used as armed recce/co op with Hartbees.

I could be wrong, but they were with Fury photos from albums working on Furies.

Stefaan

Bottom one has many Fury looks about it so I think you are right, just never seen pics of a Fury with the racks which threw me, top one I am sure is a Hartebees, that looks

like an oil cooler on the underside of the cowling in front of the radiator?

[Graham Boak]

Yes, plus proper bomb carriers not just the LSCs, rams horn exhausts(?) and what does appear to be very large inlets on both fuselage sides? Odd, whatever it is.

 

OK, so one of them looks like a Fury.  What's more, a Fury with a round hole on the top of the cowling?

[Smithy]

2 hours ago, Stefaan said:

Hi Guys.

Piet van Schalkwyk is joining Britmodeller and waiting in the waiting room.

He has sent this as evidence

 

From the 2 Squadron War Diary (Detachment based at Nanyuki) the following is noted on the Fury overheating problems:

 

16-1-1941            The Furies at Lokitang are boiling before they reach 3000 ft  (The outside temperature reached as high as 130°/ 54,4 °C).

 

17-1-1941            All Furies grounded except in an emergency.  They will be brought in from the outstations in two’s for a modification that may keep the temp a bit lower.

 

20-1-1941            Capt Colenbrander’s Fury modified by adding two extra elements on the oil cooler.  The Fury was test flown and overheated beautifully, the engineers were disgusted.

 

21-1-1941            The Fury was taken to East Leigh.  They are going to put eleven elements in the cooler, this mean seven extra elements.  They have also cut holes in the cowling and fitted cups over them to catch air to cool the engine. 

 

25-1-1941            Capt Colenbrander returned to the squadron from East Leigh.  The new element seem to be working fairly satisfactory.

 

--

Piet van Schalkwyk

Golden Eagle Productions

[email protected]

 

That's excellent and many thanks for posting. Nice to see that it corroborates that additional slots were cut in the cowling to increase airflow to the engine. Hopefully Piet might have a close up photo of these slots or a more detailed image.