P-51D stars and bars

[Toryu]

Agree that the forward bar is stained (from the fuel filler above), that's why it's darker than the rest. But the others are not white.  Compare with many pictures with a white bar - the white stands out very clearly. I suppose that not necessarily grey had been used for toning down, but maybe some dissolvent or paste. P-51Ds were usually kept in ship-shape, why would they allow just the insignia to be stained throughout?

 

In the end, whatever the reason may be, as modeller you will have to darken the stars and bars.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Toryu

[Smithy]

4 hours ago, Toryu said:

Agree that the forward bar is stained (from the fuel filler above), that's why it's darker than the rest. But the others are not white.  Compare with many pictures with a white bar - the white stands out very clearly. I suppose that not necessarily grey had been used for toning down, but maybe some dissolvent or paste. P-51Ds were usually kept in ship-shape, why would they allow just the insignia to be stained throughout?

 

In the end, whatever the reason may be, as modeller you will have to darken the stars and bars.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier Michael, my interest with the USAAF is only the 4th FG so I can't speak for other groups, but looking at my books on the 4th the all grey stars and bars don't seem to have been used with them, or at the least they were exceedingly rare - there's a couple of black and white photos which could be construed as such but they're certainly not conclusive and they're in no way definitively grey. Other groups obviously seem to have used the grey insignia but with the 4th I think it's safe to say that it was not used, or at the most optimistically, rare.

[silberpferd]

2 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

As I mentioned earlier Michael, my interest with the USAAF is only the 4th FG so I can't speak for other groups, but looking at my books on the 4th the all grey stars and bars don't seem to have been used with them, or at the least they were exceedingly rare - there's a couple of black and white photos which could be construed as such but they're certainly not conclusive and they're in no way definitively grey. Other groups obviously seem to have used the grey insignia but with the 4th I think it's safe to say that it was not used, or at the most optimistically, rare.

Here we have clearly a white star

 

but here the stars have been toned down, (with fuel stain on the forward portion)

 

Laurent

[noelh]

I can't say that the white was never toned down deliberately on natural metal P51s. It's possible, maybe even likely.  But I don't buy that white stands out more than shiny natural metal in sunshine. There's glint for a start.

 

An anecdote, flying a mostly white skydive aeroplane in and near cloud at about 10,000 feet. My boss was also in the vicinity in another mostly white aeroplane, worryingly invisible. It was pretty surreal but a glint from a windscreen revealed him passing in the opposite direction in and of cloud. He never saw me at all. If it was a dogfight he was toast. We were both nearly toast if it wasn't for the shine from a reflective surface. 

The point is that in a big sky any aeroplane is hard to see. I know that from experience. You can be sure the pilots of the Eight Airforce knew that too.

A small area of white on a fuselage won't make much difference really. The canopy alone would stand out more.

 

Incidentally the thing I flew is similar in size to the Mustang but not  in performance.  Mores the pity.

 

 

But what do I know?

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by noelh

[Smithy]

24 minutes ago, silberpferd said:

Here we have clearly a white star

 

but here the stars have been toned down, (with fuel stain on the forward portion)

 

Laurent

 

I'm still not convinced that on Monroe's T-Wang it has had the insignia painted grey. I have several renditions of that photo as well as several other photos of her. For instance in Speer's "Eighty-One Aces of the 4th Fighter Group" on page 22 it merely appears as if the insignia has dulled through operational usage and grime accumulating in the slipstream on the aircraft's sides. By the time the aircraft was passed onto Davis it had flown quite a hectic period of ops and also at a time when the 4th was flying a lot of ground attack at low levels on targets of opportunity after release from bomber escort on their way home. This obviously added to the grime and wear on the airframes.

[noelh]

On 12/16/2018 at 5:58 AM, silberpferd said:

 

 

Can you honestly say the insignia is less obvious than the big black spot on the tail? The Lufwaffe pilot who shot holes in the tail might disagree.

[Bedders]

It's an interesting discussion, and maybe we won't arrive at a clear answer. But why not let's see how folks deal with this in model form. Here are my latest ones. The original of "The Little Witch" shows a pretty dark star & bar compared to my model, but I assmumed winter 1944-45 grime rather than grey paint. One has to remember that they may have cleaned up the airframes with a fuel-soaked rag, and that may well have polished up the natural metal but also reacted badly with white paint. Anyway:

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235033807-p-51d-5-lou-iv-172/

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235030580-the-little-witch-slybird-p-51d-in-172/

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235027447-p-51b-in-172/

 

Justin

 

[fubar57]

B-17 and -24 bombers also had the greyed out stars

 

EDIT: just found a photo in "P-51 Mustang in Color" with a caption that says; "Maggie's Drawers, from the 380th FSq, 363rd FGp, over England prior to D-Day. The national insignia has been greyed out to reduced the chances of a Luftwaffe pilot using the white star and bar as a sighting device. (USAF)"

Edited December 20, 2018 by fubar57