FAA HELLCAT

[Teammuir1]

Hello to everyone...   I posted a message as I became a NEW member a few days ago....

      on the New member section...and I received a warm welcome.. wana thank 

folks for that.....  which now leads me here to ask some detailed questions....

    First... all the forums I belong to in the RC world..  ( Radio Control )  has the image 

button in order to install pictures ...  I have yet understood how to do that here...other 

than using an existing URL... were the pic originates.. but if its my very own pic 

 that wont work..  so maybe someone can help me understand how to put a pit

 on a post that I am writing ....that would be appreciated too.....

    so to the reason I am here...  I build and fly RC planes... and I have been in the 

hobby over 36 yrs now... I still love to build...I have purchased a plane that I want 

 to turn into a Royal Navy Color Scheme ... The HELLCAT...   from my understanding 

there is only 1 ( squadron ) that had the D-Day stripes on the plane.... Invasion Stripes.. 

of course is another name for them...  here is were I would have inserted the URL

   and I cant get that to work either..  so I guess its operator error on my part  lol

 

   I am interested in knowing all that I can about this planes history... I have came 

across 2 different versions with different letters on the side of the fuse... the one 

I am most interested in has the letters  (  E   T  )    on the side....

     if someone has more pics of this airplane I sure would like to add them to my

collection for detail references ...

     I also would like to understand the colors used.. I have noticed 2 different types

which leads to 2 different colors schemes...  the one I am most interested in 

has what I would call  ( Sea Foam  Green )  on the bottom...

        At this point is were I would insert yet another pic of the plane I am working 

 on and how I want to transform it into that british Hellcat.. I like.

        hope to hear from others.. and to learn what you all already know... 

thanks in advance and hope to talk more about this with you all...  Ron

[Graham Boak]

Hellcat Mk.1 (F6F-3)  E.T belonged to 800 Sq, the only unit flying from the escort carrier (CVE) HMS Emperor.  Hence the letter E identifying the carrier, the other being the individual aircraft code.  It will have taken part in the Operation Dragoon landings in Southern France.  I haven't been able to find the serial in a quick look but believe it to be known - otherwise there are other 800 Sq Hellcats that can be fully identified.  I know that JV188 was E.T but this didn't reach the unit until October and probably didn't carry the stripes.  Then again it might, but I doubt it.  I think you are looking for its predecessor.  Proof either way awaits a view of the photo.

 

The colours were the standard FAA camouflage of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on top, with Sky underneath.  Sky is also officially referred to as duck egg blue, which is one of those colours that people find it difficult to agree about - is it blue or is it green?  Most model paints perhaps err on the pale green side.  It might be worth adding that EDSG appears very dark when new but fairly rapidly changes to become bluer and greyer.  Dark Slate Grey is a greenish grey (or even a greyish green).

 

At this stage this was the only scheme applied to FAA Hellcats: around this time the Admiralty agreed to accept Land Lease aircraft in their USN Sea Blue Gloss colour scheme without repainting, so later Mk.IIs appeared in SBG.  As far as I know the only other scheme ever applied to an FAA Hellcat was an overall black used for a handful of PR aircraft in the Indian Ocean, but I suspect that could be better described.

[Teammuir1]

Graham Boak

        that is some great information...  I had read on the internet little and I thought the squadron 

was the 800....   but I did not know that the letters I described would not have wore the D-Day stripes.???

      The pics of the plane I have is of a Real restored plane...  but who is to say if its authentic to the 

true color scheme...  I sure was hoping that it was..... 

      That sky..  color you spoke about...  that sure is a hard color to nail down... because your right 

some see it blue white others see it green..       I personally am the one that sees it green... lol

   

    On a side not..     I am wondering why this forum isnt like the majority out there were it has  

that  button for a person too download an image...    unless that will take up alot more space on a 

server that wasnt designed for it ?     but even at that I have not yet been able to use the URL

       lets see if this works so you can take a look at the plane I am talking about.. 

 

 https://www.google.com/search?q=faa+hellcat+on+d+day&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioid2mt5vfAhWl5IMKHS4YDvoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1380&bih=655&dpr=1.13#imgdii=oGpRioTFw5e3sM:&imgrc=TKaXzK-hqubfLM:

 

 

   I hope this works...    

since I posted that URL....

    I used it and it took me to that pic I wanted to show..  GREAT...  

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

10 minutes ago, Teammuir1 said:

unless that will take up alot more space on a 

server that wasnt designed for it ?

I do believe that is the issue. Most if not all who post photo’s use some form of photo hosting site. I use Imgur others use flickr, i think villiagephoto is another one. Google seems to work for some like your post. 

 

Dennis

[Teammuir1]

well  to be honest..  all I did was right click on the URL I wanted to use.

    and then PASTE it to my post...

    from there it worked..  

     but that does not solve the issue I have for me posting my own 

 pictures..   but thats ok....    lol   

[Graham Boak]

I wouldn't be that definite: I think there's reasonable doubt whether JV188 carried the stripes because of the dates, but another E.T will have.  I just haven't found it - maybe someone else will know it.   I have had another look but no joy.  Presumably the warbird owner has some source, even if he has the E and T the wrong way round, at least on the starboard side, at least as it appeared on other aircraft in the squadron.  It is possible that the date JV188 joined the squadron is wrong, but it is consistent with a group of similar-serialled aircraft which joined the unit in October, presumably re-equipping after the period of operations.

 

The problem with the stripes is that they were applied when the squadron was in the UK at the time of D-Day, but they were not part of the markings for Dragoon and had been altered over Normandy before Emperor began operations.  Presumably Emperor was not being sent the new orders because she was "out of area" as there seems to be no doubt the full set of stripes were retained, but for how long?  That no-one else was using them might have been taken as a bit of a hint.

 

Unless you are wedded to the idea of T, you can choose from a number of other serial/letter combinations for Hellcats on Emperor at this time.

[Teammuir1]

 

Honestly  I love to add the D-Day stripes to this plane.  if in fact it had them ....

     I am not going to do it unless it had them..   thats why I picked this color scheme

         its original ..  and not every one would have this color scheme

     I like to sit a part from the rest when it comes to my RC Planes.

              thanks so much for helping me..   did you find the colors 

 to be close to correct on that plane off the URL I listed ?

[Teammuir1]

I am not set on the letter T....  only reason i chose that was i have a photo of it on a plane... but if its not hostorically correct....why would the person restoring the plane make it inacorrect....  im only building an RC model that I will fly... that gentleman restored the real thing

Why would he not get his facts correct... 

[Graham Boak]

Lots of reasons, usually boiling down to lack of references or some specific interest.  Perhaps he has a daughter called Teresa?  JV188 was E.T, so there's nothing wrong with that.  800 Sq did paint their aircraft like that so that's ok too.  It is only the combination of the two that might be wrong.  I don't see a unit in the Med adding stripes to a replacement aircraft, some might see that as keeping things tiddley (neat and tidy the RN way) or maintaining a squadron distinction.  Perhaps there is a photo?

 

Getting the codes the wrong way round is presumably because he only had a view of the port side and assumed the carrier code would always be ahead of the roundel.  Sadly the FAA wasn't consistent like that.

 

I'm a little surprised that no-one else has come in yet.

[Teammuir1]

Well if its of any consaquence ...  I am very Happy that you have shared your knowledge with me....

    I have learn a great deal already..   but still have some questions.. concerning the paint

      if you notice that pic of the T- plane   it really appears that it has that DARK BLUE still 

 on it and that it wasnt completely painted..  I noticed this when I cam across the other plane

the one that is last in the three pictures. so after thinking and looking some more on the internet

 I have came to the conclusion by your taking your info that when this plane was restored

 it was NOT a British plane to begin with but yet he wanted it too resemble it .. maybe because 

he likes the D-Day stripes as much as I do..  I dont know..  but it seems to me if it were already 

a british plane... he would not have that Dark Blue paint on the Top side of the plane.. and I can 

 understand that it was just easier to paint part of the plane and less costly ....it seems to me 

 that the wheels too are not painted correctly to match the under belly of the plane it looks

 as if they are left metal ....but then ... again who knows.. he might have been in a hurry to make 

an event and was not finished..  lol  so many many possibilities...  but it would be nice 

to see if I could track down that person flying that plane.. I think alot of answers could be had

from that pilot..  

[Seahawk]

 Well, and at the risk of repeating some of the good info from Graham...

 

As regards colours all Hellcats (USN and FAA) were built at the Grumman parent factory and, for FAA aircraft, Grumman used paint matching the official UK Ministry of Aircraft Production shades.  (Sometimes, especially when production (eg some Wildcats, some Avengers) transferred to other plants, "substitute" shades were used, which were agreed by the US and UK authorities to be alternative colours acceptably close to the MAP shade.  However this does not apply to Hellcats.)  The official colours for FAA fighters at the time were Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky available in many ranges.  Some ranges are more authentic/accurate than others: I would recommend Sovereign or Xtracolor.

 

As regards the identity, Graham has already identified JV188 but has justifiable doubts as to whether it was in use at D-Day (when HMS Emperor, her parent carrier, provided fighter cover over the western approaches to the English Channel).  I'd agree.  I also note that the owner of the aircraft you show has not added the red cowling front used as an identification marking for the DRAGOON invasion of southern France, so he isn't trying to recreate that period.  In an article in the Air Britain magazine Aeromilitaria 3/91 pp 73-6, Ray Sturtivant lists, with codes where known, all the aircraft he had identified as serving with 800 Squadron from formation in 1933 to date.  In that list JV128 is also listed as ET.  However, in the record for this airframe in his subsequent book FAA Aircraft 1939-45 (1995), he does not record any service with 800 Sq: there is however a gap in the record from a belly landing in March 44 to service with 1839 Sq in May 45.  It is therefore not impossible that JV128 was the (or an) earlier ET.  Or Ray Sturtivant may have concluded that the 2 in JV128 was a copying error for 8.  Either way, you would be unlucky to find someone able to prove you wrong.  Other serial code correlations in the earlier article are JV105 EW, JV130 EA, JV131 EL, JV134 EZ, JV145 EL (another one!), JV173 EA (another one!) and JV179 ES: I haven't checked whether these were on 800 Sq strength on D-Day.

 

As Graham says, the code presentation on the starboard side is wrong.  This is a common mistake by people more familiar with RAF practice.  FAA codes throughout the war consisted of 3 elements, a carrier letter, a squadron number and an individual letter.  Sometimes there was only one carrier in the area so the carrier letter was omitted, sometimes (as here) the carrier carried only one squadron so the squadron number was omitted, but almost invariably (I don't need all the fingers on one hand to list the exceptions I know of), the chosen presentation read the same on both sides of the aircraft.  How they were presented in relation to the roundel was up to the whim of the CO or the painter but, say, A4G on one side would always read A4G on the other, so here it's E-T on both sides.

 

Wondering off-topic now, I think Graham conflates 2 stories in his mention of the black Hellcats.  Firstly the Hellcats of 888 Sq were repainted in a local approximation to PRU Blue for PR duties in the Eastern Fleet Area: fact. 

 

More interestingly there is also the story that a 885 Squadron Hellcat on HMS Ruler, British Pacific Fleet replenishment train, was repainted during a slack period because its pilot noticed some tins of gloss black paint lying around and wondered whether such a finish might make his aircraft faster.  AFAIK this story first surfaced in IPMS Magazine, accompanied by a photo of 3 camouflaged Hellcats and 1 dark one and allegedly forwarded by the contributor from the aircraft's pilot, one S/L Campbell.  However in 2012 I got in contact with a former 885 Sq pilot who dismissed the story out-of-hand as a total lineshoot.  Firstly, he was flying one of the other aircraft in the formation shown in the photo (which he was able to date to within 3 days and give a location for): he did not see an all-black Hellcat on that or any other day.  Secondly, he knew no S/L Campbell on the squadron during his time.  Thirdly, Ruler's Air Engineering Officer was co-author of a very detailed history of HMS Ruler (called Ruler's Reign) : it was inconceivable that such a repaint could have taken place without his knowledge and yet the book makes no mention of repainting except to record the changeover from EIF to BPF markings.  Fourthly, the hangar of a carrier in the tropics was no place to embark upon a complete repaint of an airframe at the whim of its pilot.  The person I spoke to in 2012 was lucid and voluble.  Equally the IPMS magazine contributor, whose name I did not recognise, claimed that S/L Campbell was still around (this would have been in the 80s.)  The photo, by the way, is the stock photo of HMS Ruler, with Hellcats overhead.  It appears for example on p.129 of David Hobbs' Royal Navy Escort Carriers: the aircraft concerned is in the foreground, to my mind in straight Gloss Sea Blue (though NB the ROYAL NAVY title and serial carried across the fin and rudder in common with other Ruler Hellcats), my collocutor was flying the fourth aircraft as tail-end-Charlie.  So there you have it, two flatly contradictory accounts: you choose which one you believe!

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Seahawk

[Teammuir1]

HOLY SMOKES........       That was some awsome information...   1 thing I hung on..   was the red ring on the nose... that was the detail of the dragon invasion...

       so ... I am trying to keep this simple so everyone can stay with it....     

     

 1. ......   the 800 squadron  was the only one with D-Day stripes....

  2.......    also the planes had the Red Ring on the front of the cowling..... Did that red cowl also go with the invasion stripes ?

   3.....    The letters are wrong on the plane I gave a pic of the owner made a mistake.. (  Now thats funny stuff. )     thinking back I am only building a RC Plane..

    4....    here is another link to yet another plane.    but its a model... so are the letters correct for the invasion stripes and red cowling ?

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=faa+hellcat+on+d+day&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioid2mt5vfAhWl5IMKHS4YDvoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1380&bih=655&dpr=1.13#imgdii=W15r-inI1OXMiM:&imgrc=nWGhVPxb0tUTuM:

 

 

     I am so floored right now....    the amount of information that you guys know.. about this plane..  I would have never had thought 

 I would have gotton this type of responce..  I am so happy that I registered on this forum....  KEEP the info coming..   

      I gotta go back and re read again..  I want to absorb that info...    lol

[Teammuir1]

NEXT ...   if someone has pictures of a real plane...  with correct marking.. and invasion stripes and red cowling..   thats what I would like to do 

    is use a pic of a real hellcat..  so that I can use as a reference .....

[Graham Boak]

Look down the centre row of photos in your link and you will find E.W JV105.

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, Teammuir1 said:

NEXT ...   if someone has pictures of a real plane...  with correct marking.. and invasion stripes and red cowling..   thats what I would like to do 

    is use a pic of a real hellcat..  so that I can use as a reference .....

 

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Look down the centre row of photos in your link and you will find E.W JV105.

 

[Teammuir1]

Take a look at this picture.....   it gives some good detail....  even about the pilot......   but it has no red ring on the cowl. and yet it has the 

   D-Day stripes...  

    

 

     https://www.google.com/search?q=faa+hellcat+on+d+day&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioid2mt5vfAhWl5IMKHS4YDvoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1380&bih=655&dpr=1.13#imgdii=3m-sIwDCSW064M:&imgrc=nz7G4RTnDNlA4M:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If I understood how to input just a picture on here I would.....  but I still yet have figured out 

 how you put that pic up.....   lol

Edited December 14, 2018 by Teammuir1

[Teammuir1]

This is interesting....    I know its a Model..  but wouldnt the manufacturer get the details right before selling the models.?

 

        https://www.google.com/search?q=faa+hellcat+on+d+day&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioid2mt5vfAhWl5IMKHS4YDvoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1380&bih=655&dpr=1.13#imgrc=WnDsqyR2vJUvOM:

 

 

It appears to have the same letters but in different order....  and another thing I noticed the letters are outlined in 2 different colors some times..

   yellow or  white.....   that has to be significant ?

[Grey Beema]

Can I ask a quick question please? 

 

In Apr 44 for Operation Tungsten I think there were two squadrons on Emperor.  

800 NAS had white E°? Codes and 804 NAS with red E°? Codes (Orr (804) JV125 and Richie (800) JV132 both made claims)

So from what I can figure out Squadron designation was by way of the colour of the code.  

 

I have a dodgy memory but I think I read that Emperor covered the Western approaches during D-Day (As part of Operation Neptune?).  What I do know is that 800, 804 and Emperor all received Battle honours for Normandy (June 6th - July 3rd) would they have carried Invasion markings from this tasking?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Grey Beema

[Teammuir1]

I found yet another model with different letters on it 

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=faa+hellcat+on+d+day&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US568&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwioid2mt5vfAhWl5IMKHS4YDvoQ_AUIDigB&biw=1380&bih=655&dpr=1.13#imgrc=5tfnkOuvXfC2GM:

[Seahawk]

Sorry, all your links bring up a page full of pictures for me so I am never clear exactly which photo you are talking about.  To answer one question, no,, manufacturers do not always get it right before putting their products on sale.  Research costs time and different producers make different judgements about how much their customers will a. notice or b. care if they get it wrong.  Sometimes they hire researchers but there are limits to every researcher's knowledge and sometimes they get it wrong.   And we are all learning all the time: I care very much whether my models are accurate but, with the progress of time and thanks in part to the wonderful knowledge available on this forum, I know now that some of them are not.

 

The photo in post 15 was, IIRC, taken at Maddelena, Sardinia, during replenishment after Emperor's involvement in DRAGOON.  I judge (but may be wrong) that the invasion stripes are in process of being painted out before Emperor continued eastwards.  If you wanted a 800 Sq Hellcat in invasion stripes and with the red DRAGOON identification band, you could do much worse than model this aircraft but with full invasion stripes (ie before they started painting them out): that is probably how it appeared during DRAGOON.  Your aircraft should not carry rockets, whether of US or UK pattern and at most there would only be one bombrack, under the starboard wing root.

 

Most photographs support the idea that 800 Sq's codes were outlined in white.  However in 1984 a 800 Sq Hellcat, JV111 E-P, was discovered underwater off the coast of France.  It was in good condition and the codes, clearly visible, appeared to be outlined in Yellow.  That is the origin of the yellow outlining you may see on some models of 800 Sq Hellcats.  I can't explain the reason for the different colour.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Seahawk
Ident of recovered Hellcat added.

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

Can I ask a quick question please? 

 

In Apr 44 for Operation Tungsten I think there were two squadrons on Emperor.  

800 NAS had white E°? Codes and 804 NAS with red E°? Codes (Orr (804) JV125 and Richie (800) JV132 both made claims)

So from what I can figure out Squadron designation was by way of the colour of the code.  

 

I have a dodgy memory but I think I read that Emperor covered the Western approaches during D-Day (As part of Operation Neptune?).  What I do know is that 800, 804 and Emperor all received Battle honours for Normandy (June 6th - July 3rd) would they have carried Invasion markings from this tasking?

You have me bang to rights: 800 Sq did not absorb 804 Sq until 18 June 1944 ie after D-Day, so there were 2 Hellcat squadrons on Emperor at D-Day., hence the battle honours for both 800 and 804.  To avoid any confusion, my thinking is that Emperor's Hellcats wore invasion stripes for NEPTUNE (D-Day naval operations) to which was added the red cowling identification ring for DRAGOON (invasion of S of France.)

 

I hadn't heard the idea before that codes were different colours to differentiate 800 and 804 aircraft.  At a quick glance through Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft it looks as if 800 Sq used the E prefix and 804 simply an individual code right up to absorption. Both the aircraft you mention are shown as assigned to 800 Sq even if one was flown by an 804 pilot.  More study required!

[Grey Beema]

55 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

You have me bang to rights: 800 Sq did not absorb 804 Sq until 18 June 1944 ie after D-Day, so there were 2 Hellcat squadrons on Emperor at D-Day., hence the battle honours for both 800 and 804.  To avoid any confusion, my thinking is that Emperor's Hellcats wore invasion stripes for NEPTUNE (D-Day naval operations) to which was added the red cowling identification ring for DRAGOON (invasion of S of France.)

 

I hadn't heard the idea before that codes were different colours to differentiate 800 and 804 aircraft.  At a quick glance through Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft it looks as if 800 Sq used the E prefix and 804 simply an individual code right up to absorption. Both the aircraft you mention are shown as assigned to 800 Sq even if one was flown by an 804 pilot.  More study required!

 

This might help,

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205155830

Looks like dark codes (red?) facing the bow (right) & light codes facing aft (white?)..

 

Operation Dragoon,  either C or G?  

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157219

 

N or M

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157218

 

Classic shot showing the single bomb under starboard wing..

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157216

 

You're right about the more research required...

 

 

[Crimea River]

There's also this interesting pic:

 

 

No invasion stripes on the aircraft in the foreground but the first one facing us has them.

[Graham Boak]

That last photo doesn't look like a UK harbour, does it?  Which suggests post Dragoon, so the stripes have been removed from most aircraft.  Supporting this both JV145 and the one behind shows signs of a changes of tone corresponding to over-painted stripes.  JV145 is recorded in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 as 804/L and then 800/E.L.

 

If you want a theory, the white-outlined red codes were carried by the combined unit for a brief period (i.e transfer to the Med and Dragoon itself) as a gesture, only to be later replaced (when down-time and local repainting permitted?) by the original white of 800.  It makes sense to me, anyway.

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

 

This might help,

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205155830

Looks like dark codes (red?) facing the bow (right) & light codes facing aft (white?)..

Quite compelling as to the co-existence of light and dark codes on Emperor during TUNGSTEN.  Though not quite as simple as you suggest: there's a different photo of the first two aircraft of the righthand range on p.63 of Osprey's Royal Navy Aces of World War 2: the first aircraft is JV105 EW of 800 Sq (red, outlined white, codes), the second is EF and looks as if it has the lighter codes.

 

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

 JV145 is recorded in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 as 804/L and then 800/E.L.

 

Of course we are at the mercy of Sturtivant and his sources here.  What if 804 Sq's ORB (or whatever the FAA called their equivalent) simply didn't bother recording the carrier code?  An apparent distinction has then been created where none existed in real life.  I have definitely seen photos of early European Hellcats with single codes but have always assumed these were earlier during work-up at Eglinton, before allocation (or at least painting up) of a carrier letter.

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

If you want a theory, the white-outlined red codes were carried by the combined unit for a brief period (i.e transfer to the Med and Dragoon itself) as a gesture, only to be later replaced (when down-time and local repainting permitted?) by the original white of 800.  It makes sense to me, anyway.

Nice theory: retain the colours of both units' codes till the pain of the merger has eased.  However 800 Sq Hellcats were already wearing red, outlined white, codes during TUNGSTEN (see Osprey op cit, p.63) ie long before the merger.

 

Apologies for messy post: haven't worked out how to delete superfluous quote boxes!