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3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

P.S. I had NO idea that my post about the Spitfire Mk XII would have so many views! Just goes to show the enormous interest in that marque held by so many modelers

It's helped to persuade me that I should get on and build one soon. To avoid the slightly predictable 41 & 91 Squadron markings I'm toying with tne idea of doing one of the 595 Squadron machines from 1945 or so. There's a photo of one of them in this collection: https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/spitfire-mk-xii/

 

Justin

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33 minutes ago, Bedders said:

To avoid the slightly predictable 41 & 91 Squadron markings I'm toying with tne idea of doing one of the 595 Squadron machines from 1945 or so. There's a photo of one of them in this collection: https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/spitfire-mk-xii/

 

Justin

 

That's neat, a photo of a 595 sq plane!

 

@Lazlo Woodbine did a build a while back,

 

 

 but without a photo, he went for  this

 

Quote

Spitfire XII in the markings of 595 Sqn an AA Co-operation unit in 1945, two of my refs show the code as 'N' and one later found show it as 'Y'. Scheme is taken from the orders at the time, just wanted a different scheme

 

. Photo052.jpg&key=354447e81f5044c39439337

 

the photos does  confirm a weathered DFS, pity it's not the above as that is different!

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Bedders,

 

That would be a really neat model- don't know why I never noticed the squadron codes in the photo before, as I have the monograph. Pretty neat that a Mk XII was still in service at that late date.

Mike 

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The only other 595 Sqn aircraft that I've seen is a photo of this Mk IX, sitting next to Bader's aircraft in 1945:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/battle-britain-pictures/group-captain-douglas-bader-1910-82-sits-cockpit-supermarine/

 

I'm not sure who the pilot was: the flypast was led by 1940 veterans, including Tuck, Turner, Crowley-Milling etc. In the Pathe film you see the first 3 aircraft take off in a vic, so it was probably one of the big names flying 7B-H. Pity it wasn't a XII...

 

Justin

Edited by Bedders
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I started to collect a Mk XII kit together some years back.

 

Starting with a dedicated Mk XII firewall frame five with data plate, auxiliary gearbox pick up points and short Griffon engine mount lugs I grafted on a A-A Mk V/IX fuselage kit. The lower carry through spars are Mk V with the four equal diameter bolts. Mk VIII wings will not fit due to the increased width of the spar booms and the increased diameter of the two inner bolts on the lower spar and boom.

 

I selected a pair of Mk IX wings although Mk V would have serviced the requirement.  For these wings I gathered a Mk Vc Trop radiator set. The Trop main radiator is correct and one inch deeper than the temperate Mk V.

 

Oleos are from Mk V or early Mk IX…the spline type. Wheels & Brakes are late Mk V four spoke.

 

Beggars cannot be choosers and a Mk IX tail unit is fitted although strictly speaking it should not have the extended horn on the elevator. Rudder is pointed Mk VIII/IX/XVI type and is correct.

 

Engine and bearer assembly are from a Seafire XVII and the four blade propeller from a Seafire XV…a perfect fit. Top cowling will be a cut down Mk XIV item with a dummy bulge between the cam cover profiles to simulate the clearance on the early magneto.

 

Fuel and oil tanks will be Seafire XVII which is a bit of a compromise. All cockpit furniture, front windscreen and canopy are late Mk V/IX.

 

A bit of fun, scale 1:1, Serial number EN224, Code EB-L, Registration G-FXII. Could be flying by next year with a following wind.

 

Happy new year.

 

 

.

Edited by Mark12
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On 8/6/2010 at 4:28 PM, Lazlo Woodbine said:

Photo052.jpg

 

Wow, that looks interesting and unique for a Mk.XII. But why would anyone repaint the Ocean Grey cammo fields with Dark Earth in 1945?

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32 minutes ago, warhawk said:

why would anyone repaint the Ocean Grey cammo fields with Dark Earth in 1945?

To simulate Bomber Command colours perhaps?

1 hour ago, Mark12 said:

Top cowling will be a cut down Mk XIV item with a dummy bulge between the cam cover profiles to simulate the clearance on the early magneto.

@Mark12, thats exciting that we may see this in the air before too long. re the bulge on the cowl top, I've long been under the impression it was for a coffs starter but I'm not doubting you at all, after all, you're far closer to the real deal than me so I'm not sure where that came from & I'm guessing the magneto(s?) were relocated in the Seafire engines?

Steve.

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32 minutes ago, warhawk said:

 

Wow, that looks interesting and unique for a Mk.XII. But why would anyone repaint the Ocean Grey cammo fields with Dark Earth in 1945?

The model scheme is incorrect,   the builder worked a scheme he thought correct for a bomber support unit 

Quote

Spitfire XII in the markings of 595 Sqn an AA Co-operation unit in 1945, two of my refs show the code as 'N' and one later found show it as 'Y'. Scheme is taken from the orders at the time, just wanted a different scheme

I posted this because the other link has a photo of a a 595 Sq Spitfire XII,  which shows a faded DFS

RAF-in-Combat.com_Spitfire-XII-17-300x16

 

 

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36 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

 

@Mark12, thats exciting that we may see this in the air before too long. re the bulge on the cowl top, I've long been under the impression it was for a coffs starter but I'm not doubting you at all, after all, you're far closer to the real deal than me so I'm not sure where that came from & I'm guessing the magneto(s?) were relocated in the Seafire engines?

Steve.

The Griffon engine has a single unit combined magneto sitting between the cam covers at the front. They modified or developed the magneto to a much lower profile in the course of time. The Coffman starter was installed on the RHS of the engine below the exhaust stacks..

 

rolls-royce-griffon-61_zps48n6wbfs.jpg

Edited by Mark12
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13 hours ago, Lazlo Woodbine said:

Still got the model in bits somewhere, might get it out and redo it.

 

Gary

At the time you thought that this was correct and from @Troy Smith’s emphasis it shows that from your research you thought it was correct at the time; so then I’d say leave it as it is.  If from new knowledge we had to fix all our past offerings I think half of us here would be re-painting the Forth Bridge ad infinitum!!  At least you did the research in the first place.

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I made my first Spitfire XII conversion in about 1980, splicing a Frog XIV nose onto a Heller Mk. V.  I think I may still have it somewhere but I'm pretty sure that the nose is too long for a XII.

 

I would love to convert Airfix's 1/24 Mk. I / V but haven't a Scooby as to how to create the distinctive cowlings of the Griffon engine.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Troy mentioned me upthread so I'm a bit later for the party!

 

Simplest and cheapest way to a mk XII in 72nd is a Sword Seafire XVII double pack - hear me out! - and a Sword mk V.  The XVII comes with a free Seafire XV fuselage, so use that to replace the mk V fuselage and source the retractable tailwheel from the spares left in an Eduard mk IX.  You may have to copy the XV/XVII cowling upper in rubber and resin.  Or play about with a Quiickboost one intended for the Fujimi XIV (and it's too short for that anyway!)

 

 

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This is a great thread, so much to consider.

 

I've made a couple of attempts at a 1/72 Mk XII.

The first is the CMR resin kit:

.

 

CMR kits are known for their excellent dimensions, but the XII's fuselage is noticeably short.

.

 

This is compared to a Sword Mk Vc kit with the Brigade Mk XII conversion. You can see that the two line up very well from the nose to rear canopy cut out, but the rear fuselage of the CMR kit is much shorter.

 

.

 

And here is the completed Sword Vc with the Brigade XII conversion nose.

.

 

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Cookie.

 

Never noticed that before, and I have the CMR XII; I pulled it off  of the shelf, along with my Sword VC and Airfix Vb, and compared the fuselage/cowlings with my Paragon Mx II conversion cowling, and I can pretty  much confirm what you have posted. The overall length, from the firewall to the backplate of the spinner of the Paragon conversion is a scale 6' 3", and the length of the spinner is 2' 9" , and the CMR kit pieces have the same dimensions. When  you line up the Vc fuselage and CMR fuselage as you did at the firewall, (Good comparison, as one batch of XII's came from Vc airframes) it indeed looks like the CMR kit is short in the fuselage, as you can see the LE's of the stabilizers do not line up. As the Tamiya Mk I/II and Vb kits have the same fuselage length issues, I'm wondering if CMR used the Tamiya kits or the drawings they were based on to make their XII? 

Not wishing to draw out even further our lengthy conversation on making an accurate  Mk XII, I just wanted you to know either we're both pretty smart or both in error! Thanks for the photos- they really help. Even more convinced now that my Paragon conversion mated to an Eduard IXc/VII fuselage is the easiest way for me.....of course, a state of the art new-tool wouldn't be refused!( Modeling Laws being what they are, I would have thought all of the conversions I have seen so far by the talented modelers on BM would have caused this to occur already!)

Mike

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14 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

(Good comparison, as one batch of XII's came from Vc airframes)

 

That's an old myth.  No, they didn't.  It is still a good comparison because all Spitfires were the same length from the firewall to the rudder post, but all Mk.XIIs had new fuselages, different from the Mk.Vc.  They were strengthened and flush-riveted (not to mention the Griffon on the front).  All Mk.XIIs had wings that were a modified form of the Mk.Vc production, and one batch had tails from the Mk.Vc (or perhaps the Mk.IXc, as these were the same).  The other batch had tails as on the Mk.VIII, and I suspect that the Mk.XII main fuselage was also the same on the Mk.VIII - but the Mk.XII came first.  The Mk.VIII had a larger main fuselage fuel tank, but that is another matter.

Edited by Graham Boak
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On 12/25/2018 at 8:43 PM, Mark12 said:

I started to collect a Mk XII kit together some years back.

 

Starting with a dedicated Mk XII firewall frame five with data plate, auxiliary gearbox pick up points and short Griffon engine mount lugs I grafted on a A-A Mk V/IX fuselage kit. The lower carry through spars are Mk V with the four equal diameter bolts. Mk VIII wings will not fit due to the increased width of the spar booms and the increased diameter of the two inner bolts on the lower spar and boom.

 

I selected a pair of Mk IX wings although Mk V would have serviced the requirement.  For these wings I gathered a Mk Vc Trop radiator set. The Trop main radiator is correct and one inch deeper than the temperate Mk V.

 

Oleos are from Mk V or early Mk IX…the spline type. Wheels & Brakes are late Mk V four spoke.

 

Beggars cannot be choosers and a Mk IX tail unit is fitted although strictly speaking it should not have the extended horn on the elevator. Rudder is pointed Mk VIII/IX/XVI type and is correct.

 

Engine and bearer assembly are from a Seafire XVII and the four blade propeller from a Seafire XV…a perfect fit. Top cowling will be a cut down Mk XIV item with a dummy bulge between the cam cover profiles to simulate the clearance on the early magneto.

 

Fuel and oil tanks will be Seafire XVII which is a bit of a compromise. All cockpit furniture, front windscreen and canopy are late Mk V/IX.

 

A bit of fun, scale 1:1, Serial number EN224, Code EB-L, Registration G-FXII. Could be flying by next year with a following wind.

 

Happy new year.

 

 

.

This is v exciting. Now just by way of whetting the appetite, would there be any pretty pictures available to view, showing how this gem is coming together....?

 

Justin

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

That's an old myth.  No, they didn't. 

I had completely forgotten about the flush riveting and strengthened structure that was used on the XII's- thanks for setting me straight; my apologies to all for the misinformation on my part! Makes sense that there had to be reinforcement due to the heft/torque of the Griffon, as well as the Mk VIII tail with the retractable tailwheel was easily added at the transport joint. Thanks, Graham!

Mike

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I think I first saw that in the late 50s, in a wartime Aircraft of the Fighting Powers.  I spent a long time waiting to see photos of Mk.12s with short ailerons!  Not that any photos were particularly easy to find for many years.  Nowadays we have riches beyond dreams, but people keep stumbling over the old books from when few knew any better.

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Hi all, i'm new to the forum and to modelling acually with just two completed kits under my belt, and this is my first post, but just wanted to say what a brilliant informative thread. I've recently taken a deeper interest in the griffon engine Spits and so picked up the Airfix Mk XII on ebay for a decent price, but am a little bit disheartened by negative comments about the kit in this thread. Not taking it all too seriously though and fortunately we have the Mk XIV coming around soon which will be interesting! I've really enjoyed my first build which was the Airfix 1/72 Typhoon starter set, and i'm close to completing the 1/72 PR XIX, and found both to be a nice quality. The 1/48 XII I'm putting off for a bit as the jump up in scale I find quite intimidating, but I'm really enjoying looking at completed builds here on BM for inspiration. 

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12 minutes ago, snappedbydan said:

Hi all, i'm new to the forum and to modelling acually with just two completed kits under my belt, and this is my first post, but just wanted to say what a brilliant informative thread. I've recently taken a deeper interest in the griffon engine Spits and so picked up the Airfix Mk XII on ebay for a decent price, but am a little bit disheartened by negative comments about the kit in this thread. Not taking it all too seriously though and fortunately we have the Mk XIV coming around soon which will be interesting! I've really enjoyed my first build which was the Airfix 1/72 Typhoon starter set, and i'm close to completing the 1/72 PR XIX, and found both to be a nice quality. The 1/48 XII I'm putting off for a bit as the jump up in scale I find quite intimidating, but I'm really enjoying looking at completed builds here on BM for inspiration. 

 

Welcome to the forum !

Don't be put off by the comments in this thread, some of us take a particular interest in how the shapes of the original aircraft are represented (I sure do when it comes to Spitfires) and we place this aspect above others, other modellers don't care that much. The same goes for some of the comments you may read on the engineering of historical side of a certain subject... that the Mk.VIII wing was reinforced may or not interest to a modeller, some will be happy to know, others will just want to know what the external differences are.

The forum also represents modellers with different experiences, some may have built kits from many brands, others may have mainly come in contact with a single manufacturer, some may find a kit easy while others find the same kit more challenging

If you're new to the hobby you'll likely at the moment be interested in other aspects of a kit, like engineering and fit of the various parts. With time you may start questioning the accuracy of a kit, or maybe you will not depending on where your interest lies. In the end only you will decide what is the way to best enjoy the hobby, none is better than the other, as long as you have fun !

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I would say build the Mk.XII you have and enjoy the experience. Unless you're a modeler that is into super accuracy, it looks like a Mk.XII. So in my mind if it looks like a 🦆 its a 🦆. Thats just my opinion of course.

 

Dennis

 

BTW ...:post1:

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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snappedbydan,

 

What Giogio stated was very well said- the people on this forum come from a vast range of knowledge, modeling skills, experience, and interests; some are casual modelers, some are incredible craftsmen/women, some are extremely well-versed and have infinite and detailed knowledge of an aircraft, some are beginners, some are experts, and some like myself are working towards becoming one; some are interested in the technical aspects of aircraft; some in the history; some in the colors and markings, and some in the men who flew and maintained them. As you will see, this site has people who are quite knowledgeable regarding a  variety of subjects.  As CFFU said, if you like the Spit XII (and who among us doesn't?) then by all means build the Airfix kit, as it does look like a XII when it's done- don't be too concerned about the shape of the bracket or the serial number range for the pilot's  relief tube...unless that's really important to you! None of us is at the point where we can't and often do learn something new from somebody else. This is the ideal place for that to happen! Welcome to our world-  the wonderful aroma of paint and cement, and the sound of tiny parts pinging into the nether regions of the carpet!

Mike 

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4 hours ago, snappedbydan said:

Hi all, i'm new to the forum and to modelling acually with just two completed kits under my belt, and this is my first post, but just wanted to say what a brilliant informative thread. I've recently taken a deeper interest in the griffon engine Spits and so picked up the Airfix Mk XII on ebay for a decent price, but am a little bit disheartened by negative comments about the kit in this thread. Not taking it all too seriously though and fortunately we have the Mk XIV coming around soon which will be interesting! I've really enjoyed my first build which was the Airfix 1/72 Typhoon starter set, and i'm close to completing the 1/72 PR XIX, and found both to be a nice quality. The 1/48 XII I'm putting off for a bit as the jump up in scale I find quite intimidating, but I'm really enjoying looking at completed builds here on BM for inspiration. 

Enjoy the XIX. For me it's the Spitfire of Spitfires.

 

Justin

Edited by Bedders
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18 minutes ago, Bedders said:

Enjoy the XIX. For me it's the Spitfire of Spitfires.

 

Justin

Put the PR XI in there and I'm with you all the way, Justin!

Mike

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