Spitfire Mk XII

[snappedbydan]

Big thank you to you all for the warm welcome, I really enjoyed reading your messages! I'm a fairly committed WW2 aviation buff but even so I've been impressed and awed by the knowledge and attention to detail seen here so far! I guess as you say that may be something I become attuned to with time, but at the moment I'm just enjoying researching all the different models and makers, and of course actually putting my own models together. I've started reading Griffon Spitfire Aces tonight for further inspiration. I can see why there's such an interest in the XII.

[Red Dog]

Going to rehash this thread.

This is all relating to 1/72 scale

Have read through the pages of this topic with great interest because like many others, I too am a fan of the first production Griffon Spitfire.

Been making a Spitfire collection (quite unintentionally. Started with one which led to another and another till I'm now up to a Mk.XII).

 

Thought of using Jay's (ex Ventura) Seafire MK.XV as a base for a conversion. Read a few reviews and builds on Jay's/Ventura kits that say with a bit of TLC it will build into a nice replica. Having the kit now in my hands I don't think I have that much TLC available.

Massive sprue gates, very rough texture to the plastic, for me only the fuselage and wings are usable. Have plenty of spares from my Eduard spitfire collection to substitute  the smaller parts, but it will take a bit of effort to get something presentable. (How good are the Eduard Spits for spares!)

 

Anyway may give up on this idea. Looking for your input and advice on other possible avenues to making a Mk.XII from what I have at hand/in the stash.

Eduard Mk.VIII

Eduard Mk.IXc and e

AZ Mk.IXc/e

Airfix Mk.XIX

AZ Mk.21

Airfix Mk.22

Special Hobby Mk.22

Without any conversion sets in the stash, I’m looking at kits that would be a good base with which to build a Mk.XII.

 

Plan 1- Use an Airfix Mk.XIX

    use fuselage as is

    re-scribe panel lines and add cannon bulges to represent a ‘c’ wing configuration

    remove wing tips

    add Coffman starter bulge to upper cowling

    add tubular oil cooler to lower left wing

    Need to source correct spinner. Here lies the main problem. Have plenty of spare prop blades from AZ Mk.21 and Special Hobby Mk.22 but no larger spinner that accommodates four blades.

 

Plan 2 - Use either an Eduard Mk.IXc or Mk.VIII with the same additions as above and use rocker covers from Special Hobbies Mk.22. Not sure how these will fit just yet. Also unsure of other differences in engine/cowling area.

Leaning towards using the Airfix Mk.XIX as it would be far easier with rocker covers already in place, no need to get Special Hobbies parts to conform and fit to the Eduard fuselages without losing all that great detail.

Not too concerned about an incorrect panel line here or there. Would like to know how well the kits compare to the overall shape of a Mk.XII. Anyone have plans or pictures that can compare these kits with shape and contours of the Mk.XII

Cheers

Red Dog

 

[FinnAndersen]

3 hours ago, Red Dog said:

Going to rehash this thread.

This is all relating to 1/72 scale

...

Red Dog

 

Having done a few using a Hasegawa IX, today I would use a the Eduard IX or VIII as basis. 

 

As you state, you will need a new oil cooler. This could come from a Tamiya V. (See post #21)

 

You will also need a Giffon nose. The trust line is a bit different from a Merlin, so it will not work with modification. The XII nose is also a bit different from a XIV, but it may be adapted (shortened). The bulge between the rocker cover is for the magneto, BTW, but will need to be present.

 

So no easy route to a decent XII, I'm afraid.

 

Edit: This is some of my XII-ish Spitfires WIP.

Top row: Tamiya Ia with Paragon nose as DP845 in the '42 Farnborough "race" with the captured FW190 and Typhoon. A XII using a Brigade model undercowl and paragon copy upper on a Hasegawa IX.

Botton Row: Xtrakit XII with a Paragon nose (I gave completely up on the nose of this one). The CMR XII (which I don't like at all, very curious shape and needing major surgery to fit the lower cowl to match the spinner). 

First three close to the painting stage.

 

/Finn

Edited February 15, 2019 by FinnAndersen

[malpaso]

Red Dog,

In 1/72 it would be much easier to just swap the noses between the Ax, AZ/KP or Ed IX and the Ax XIX.  Shorten the XIX nose as the early griffon was shorter and add the lump on the nose.  Replace one of the rads with the tubular type oil cooler.  Stick the leftover IX nose onto the XIX and you nearly have a Mk.XI too!  Sticking IX nose onto an AZ/KP Vc would be easier, though they're not cheap yet.

Okay its a bit more involved than that.  Something along these lines was my plan until I ended up with 2x Aeroclub conversions, the Xtrakit cheap and the decal sheet from the Brigade version (no idea why anyone would be selling the decal sheet only , but hey ho).  It would still be easier to swap the Aeroclub nose onto an AZ/KP Vc, (rather than recurve the Airfix 1 wings as intended) if AZ/KP ever do one of their triple-packs.

Hope this helps your thoughts.

Cheers

Will

[Giorgio N]

Using the XIX fuselage would not work as this is longer than the XII and the canopy are is quite different because of pressurisation.

From the kits listed above my plan would be using the nose from the spare Mk.22 fuselage in the AZ Mk,21 kit (at least mine came with two fuselages) on either the Eduard or AZ Mk.IX. Must be a IXc and an early one, that is with the short intake. The AZ kit is not as accurate as the Eduard one but allows the modeller to build an early Mk.IXc easier. I would probably use this one.

So chop the spare griffon engined fuselage to the length of the single stage Griffon cowl (the Mk.22 cowling is longer), chop the Mk.ix engine cowling and replace with the Griffon one. Fill the area on the wing below the oil cooler and add one from a Mk.V or aftermarket. Then add the various parts required for your build from Eduard or AZ parts (elevators, tailwheels etc.). Of course the magneto fairing on the top of the cowling must be added. In my old KP/Fujimi Mk.XII I made this from a small bomb.

 

Since you have a Jay Seafire XV,. you may also cut the cowling from this one, or see if you can adapt the whole Jay's fuselage to the AZ or Eduard wings. From the Jay's kit you can also take the propeller, that otherwise has to be made modifying parts from the other kits. If using the Jay's parts you'll have to rework the lower cowling area a bit as these kits have part of the longer carburetor intake moulded with the fuselage while the Mk.XII had a Mk.V style short intake

 

 

[72modeler]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:32 PM, 72modeler said:

I agree- the Seafire XV is one gorgeous airplane! The fuselage halves on my Xtrakit XII were badly warped forward of the cockpit and the cross section at the nose was elliptical, not circular...not sure if that was just my kit, but looking at some build articles, it seems others had the same problem.

Mike

Nope- same problem with mine; one of the reasons it became a parts mule! (Unless you and I got the only two cruddy ones pulled out of the injection machine!)

Mike

[Bonhoff]

I have gone down the Jays/Ventura Seafire XV route.

 

Trimmed the wingtips, spare rudder from the Eduard IXc, infilled the second radiator and fitted the circular oil cooler that comes as an optional part in the Airfix Spitfire Va boxing.

 

Would admit that the base kit looks crude on the sprues but it cleans up and fits quite well.

 

IanJ 

[stevehnz]

12 hours ago, Bonhoff said:

base kit looks crude on the sprues but it cleans up and fits quite well.

Very much my experience when I went down this route a couple of years ago.

Steve.

[Red Dog]

Thanks for the input guys .

Nice work on the XII-ish models Finn. They do look good. Can see a lot of work gone into them, all the best with finishing them off.  Yes magneto cover not Coffman, my mistake.

 

Giorgio & Steve - I may have to give the Jay's XV a second chance and see what I can do with it. Just looking over it again now (shiver).

Using the spare 22 in AZ's 21, great idea Giorgio will keep that in mind if the XV falls flat or needs some help.

Getting the front end to look right is where the hard work is, the distinctive Mk.XII details I find is the easy part with plenty of Spitfire leftover parts in the spares box.

No easy solution unfortunately, but that's what makes this hobby so interesting.

I'll give it a go as soon as the paint dries on the recently finished Mk.XI. Come on Valiant Wings, bring on Pt.2 of the Spitfire - Griffon Engined variants. Great reference books.

Cheers All

Red Dog

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Red Dog

[Otakar]

I know this is a very old thread but maybe someone can still help me with a question. I just today got my hands on a mint, Paragon Mk.XII conversion intended for the awful Tamiya Mk.V kit. Has anyone attempted to use this conversion with the fantastic Airfix Mk.V kit? That was my intention for this conversion.

[FinnAndersen]

7 hours ago, Otakar said:

I know this is a very old thread but maybe someone can still help me with a question. I just today got my hands on a mint, Paragon Mk.XII conversion intended for the awful Tamiya Mk.V kit. Has anyone attempted to use this conversion with the fantastic Airfix Mk.V kit? That was my intention for this conversion.

Don't know much about 1/48 Spitfires, which assume you are talking about, but regardless of base kit you will need to use some modelling skills. I have used Paragons 1/72 conversion for several different kits and pulled it off each time. The secret is to bridge the differences in tooling.

 

One of the problems with Niel's work (in 1/72) was that he made the join on the firewall. That presents a challenge fit wise as you will have to adjust the kit fuselage to fit the nose. I would guess that Tamiya and Airfix may have different thickness of the kit halves and you will need to address this particular problem. It will make or break the job.

 

/Finn 

[Tbolt]

8 hours ago, Otakar said:

I know this is a very old thread but maybe someone can still help me with a question. I just today got my hands on a mint, Paragon Mk.XII conversion intended for the awful Tamiya Mk.V kit. Has anyone attempted to use this conversion with the fantastic Airfix Mk.V kit? That was my intention for this conversion.

 

If you are talking about 1/48th scale, then I wouldn't say Tamiya's Mk.V is awful. Airfix's kit is more accurate shape wise, but has other issues and is far from fantastic.

[Fishbed]

9 hours ago, Otakar said:

I know this is a very old thread but maybe someone can still help me with a question. I just today got my hands on a mint, Paragon Mk.XII conversion intended for the awful Tamiya Mk.V kit. Has anyone attempted to use this conversion with the fantastic Airfix Mk.V kit? That was my intention for this conversion.

If its the 1/72 version, then I used the conversion with the Eduard VIII, and it fit well.

 

Tim

[spitfire]

I used the Paragon 1/32 scale XII conversion on the Hasegawa Spitfire Mk. V and it worked great, some modelling skills required though

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Giorgio N]

IIRC Paragon only did a 1/72 conversion for the Hasegawa Mk.VIII while in 1/48 they did a conversion for the Tamiya Mk.Vb.

Regarding fitting a conversion meant for a Tamiya kit to the Airfix one, the Tamiya Spitfire features excessively wide sides, so a conversion designed for that kit may be a tad wider in section at the firewall compared to the Airfix fuselage. That is something that can of course be sorted, for example inserting a plastic wedge between the fuselage halves to bring the narrower fuselage to the size of the wider cowling (where the wedge would ideally be only at the very front).

I would have to check the Hasegawa Mk.VIII fuselage against the Airfix Mk.Vc one to see if the 1/72 conversion would work with this kit. The Hasegawa fuselage is for sure shorter than should be but I can't remember comments about its width. However since @Fishbed mentioned the conversion working well on the Eduard kit, I would expect it to also work well with the Airfix one as the fuselage of this kit compares very well with the Eduard ones.

[Otakar]

The Tamiya Mk.V kit has some real dimensional issues especially with the shape of the wing. I buy Eduard kits only when I must , if there is no other good kit available. I like the Airfix Mk.V kit and it is much closer to dimension accuracy than the Tamiya kit. Yes, ALL conversions take some skill to do. I am aware of that. I have 3 of the Airfix Mk.V kits so I figured using one of those. The Paragon Mk.XII conversion looks very nice. Since the nose is split into halves, mating it to the fuselage should not be that difficult. If the firewall section does not match exactly.

 

Gunny

[FinnAndersen]

17 minutes ago, Otakar said:

The Tamiya Mk.V kit has some real dimensional issues especially with the shape of the wing. I buy Eduard kits only when I must , if there is no other good kit available. I like the Airfix Mk.V kit and it is much closer to dimension accuracy than the Tamiya kit. Yes, ALL conversions take some skill to do. I am aware of that. I have 3 of the Airfix Mk.V kits so I figured using one of those. The Paragon Mk.XII conversion looks very nice. Since the nose is split into halves, mating it to the fuselage should not be that difficult. If the firewall section does not match exactly.

 

Gunny

Seems that you have a good grip on what to look for and what to do, but no harm done asking here.  We would love to see some work in process pictures, if thats possible. A picture say more than a thousand words  

 

/Finn

[Otakar]

As soon as I finish my 109-G12. Which is being bashed from an early Eduard kit (fuselage) and a UM kit (wing). Using the jays canopy. I have not touched it for a long time since I have been building my RC stuff plus my custom hunting rifles.  Here is the link to the G12 build on another website. With pictures. https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=131002&sid=05cdcc61ea1a1aecae65e7aebd244ef4 Thanks for all the replies. I have no way to post pictures here since I can not find the website picture host. 

 

Gunny

Edited November 4, 2022 by Otakar

[FinnAndersen]

1 hour ago, Otakar said:

... I have no way to post pictures here since I can not find the website picture host. 

 

Gunny

You will need to find a host. There are some free sites, where you can upload your pictures and get a link you can insert in your posts here. 

A starting point could the FAQ section and, for hosts, this :

I'm using https://imgbox.com which is by no means top of the pop, but it works for a small number of pictures.

 

HTH Finn 

[stevehnz]

2 hours ago, Otakar said:

I have no way to post pictures here since I can not find the website picture host. 

Use the images from your Czech forum if that is allowed, right click, copy image address, paste here.

Steve.

[Otakar]

Now that was dumb of me. Why didn't I think of that.🥴

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, Otakar said:

The Tamiya Mk.V kit has some real dimensional issues especially with the shape of the wing

The main issue is note the wing shape, which is easy to correct,  but the fuselage is slightly too short,  making the wing is too far back,  and the fuselage is a bit flat sided, this, and that it's slightly too wide.  It's fixable...

 

23 hours ago, Otakar said:

I just today got my hands on a mint, Paragon Mk.XII conversion intended for the awful Tamiya Mk.V kit. Has anyone attempted to use this conversion with the fantastic Airfix Mk.V kit? That was my intention for this conversion.

 

So, if it's intended for the Tamiya kit, it will be to wide for the Airfix kit. Also, with the Airfix construction, with the separate fuel tank cover it maybe be tricky to add the nose. 

Anyway,  this, and following posts down the page,

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968337-two-148-mkvb-spitfires-tamiya-and-airfix-new-spitfire-collection-expansion-project-finished-photos-now-in-the-rfi-section-080615/page/3/#elControls_1763506_menu

 

Show the Tamiya vs the Airfix, and fixes for the Tamiya fuselage.     You can probably make the Paragon nose fit, but it will need some adjusting.  The problem that may occur is it may affect the nose ring if you thin the nose parts.      

 

Also, neither Tamiya or Airfix make a Vc, and the Mk.XII uses a C wing.  You can make a B into a C wing, but it's a fair amount of work,  and you also need to change the rake of the UC legs and find some curved face UC doors. 

See https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235052956-spitfire-v-b-vs-c-wing-and-uc-details-and-prop-variants/

 

 

As has been suggested, the easiest way to an accurate 1/48th Mk.XII is to fix the Special Hobby Mk. XII, though I have vague memories that you have dismissed these out of hand, but it's just need a couple of small extensions to make it the right length.  

Which is a lot easier to do than any of the options described above.

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Otakar]

The conversion kit provides all the blisters and such to make the C wing. I think that I should be able to do any other detail. I think that I may also have one of the Airfix Mk.XII kits somewhere in my stash. I might be able and adapt it to the Mk.V fuse. If need be.

[Scimitar F1]

Quick question - can I use the Tamiya 1/32 IXc with the Paragon nose to arrive at a Mk XII? Have an old Hasegawa Mk V that I can harvest parts from though the oil radiator is a little lame

 

Will

[Troy Smith]

55 minutes ago, Scimitar F1 said:

Quick question - can I use the Tamiya 1/32 IXc with the Paragon nose to arrive at a Mk XII? Have an old Hasegawa Mk V that I can harvest parts from though the oil radiator is a little lame

Depends on the Mk.XII,  while built as Mk.XII's the early ones (with a fixed tailwheel) used the VC fuselage, with raised rivets, and later used a Mk.VIII fuselage, flush riveted and retractable tailwheel,  so I suggest a Tamiya Mk.VIII as starting point, though you may need the full span ailerons.  Others will know more.  What kit was the Paragon designed for, as it may not fit another.  

 

If in no rush you may want to see what Kotare offer after their Mk.I, a Mk.V would make sense.