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Spitfire Mk XII


72modeler

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14 hours ago, Antti_K said:

It was great news when Airfix released their 1/48 scale kit but when I saw the first photos of it I wasn't impressed. Something isn't right about it and the model looks "funny". I still think that the best way is to modify from a Seafire Mk.XV.

In  1/48th? 

 

No, Special Hobby do a Spitfire XII, that while it has the same faults all the SH Spitfire kits have (it's a little short and the wing is too far back, both fixable with a an extension,) and you have to be a Spitfire aficionado to spot this.

 

The Airfix kit actually has most of the faults the Academy XIV kit are damned for, APART from the oversize nose ring of the Academy, in short, too deep fuselage, 'Tamiya' too broad wing, and wing in wrong place... terrible prop blades

There was much discussion when it first came out,  all of it is reasonably easy to fix apart from the prop blades.

One really easy visual fix for the airfix is to replace the rudder, both the Eduard an ICM IX kits come with alternate rudders, and cut down the fin, as the too tall rudder and fin are really noticeable.

 

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16 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

In  1/48th? 

 

No, Special Hobby do a Spitfire XII, that while it has the same faults all the SH Spitfire kits have (it's a little short and the wing is too far back, both fixable with a an extension,) and you have to be a Spitfire aficionado to spot this.

 

The Airfix kit actually has most of the faults the Academy XIV kit are damned for, APART from the oversize nose ring of the Academy, in short, too deep fuselage, 'Tamiya' too broad wing, and wing in wrong place... terrible prop blades

There was much discussion when it first came out,  all of it is reasonably easy to fix apart from the prop blades.

One really easy visual fix for the airfix is to replace the rudder, both the Eduard an ICM IX kits come with alternate rudders, and cut down the fin, as the too tall rudder and fin are really noticeable.

 

Hello Troy,

 

yes in 1/48 scale. I wish I could remember the kit manufacturer (Hobbycraft?) as it was more than 10 years ago when I last saw it. The box art originally showed a Seafire Mk.XV in Royal Canadian Navy colours. Both the nose and canopy looked better than in the Airfix kit. Of course the rudder was different but that is easy to fix.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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12 hours ago, Britman said:

would it be beyond the realms of fantasy to create a XII of sorts with a Griffin and a Mk IX ?   Just a "light bulb " moment that's all.

Airwaves/DB did a resin Griffon Spitfire nose/spinner/intake  many years back to be mated to the basic kit of choice to do a Mk XIV; you could use it to make a MK XII I guess, but. you would need to shorten the cowling at the firewall, IIRC 5" as the Griffon II or IV fitted to the XII had a different supercharger; you also need to add the blister fairing for the Coffman starter to the top of the cowling, IIRC. Just make sure, if you go this route, that you use a donor kit that has the C wing as well as the non-symmetrical coolant/intercooler/oil cooler arrangement. Decide which production batch you want as well; one batch was from Vc airframes and had the fixed tailwheel; the other batch was from VIII airframes and had the retractable tailwheel. We had a lot of discussion on building the best XII a while back, so you could look it up. @Graham Boak would be the man to ask, methink,s for the best information. In my opinion, if you can get a Paragon XII conversion, that would be the way to go, as it fits perfectly and covers all the salient features of the XII- in addition, swapping their nose for the donor Hasegawa IX/VI/VIII kit nose corrects one of the issues of their kit. (Maybe Colin could be persuaded to remaster the Paragon conversion to fit one of the new-tool Vc kits?)

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
corrected one detail
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That's the usual story, which I believe goes back to the wartime Aircraft of the Fighting Powers, but it isn't exactly true.  The Mk.XII had its own fuselage aft of the firewall, newly redesigned with flush riveting, and all had Mk.Vc wings.  Half had the tail unit from the Mk.V line and half the tail unit from the Mk.VIII,  I'm pretty sure that as the Mk.VIII also had an improved, strengthened, fuselage then this will be the same as the Mk.XII (or very similar), but I've never seen this expressly stated.  However it seems exceedingly unlikely that Supermarine could have been designing two new rear fuselages at the same time.  The first Mk.XIIs were ahead of the Mk.VIII on the production line, if only just, judging from the first flight dates.

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22 hours ago, John Thompson said:

Meh - I've got you all beat. I once tried to convert the Merlin Models Spitfire Mk XII into a Seafire Mk XV, with predictably horrid results...

 

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

No way John, I first did a XII from an Airfix Mk.IX JEJ with a plasticine nose and a Mosquito spinner.  On second thoughts, it must have been a Seafire XV. Maybe 1963?

 

Why am I beginning to think of "The Four Yorkshiremen"?

 

Edited by gingerbob
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At one point I had 1/72 models of most of the Spitfire variants. The exceptions were mk xii and xiii (and 23).

 

I didn’t really get the mk xii which I thought of as a bit of a lash up. At the time I preferred the Griffon engined spits with the cut down fuselage and the bubble top.

 

Seems I was very wrong and I’ll watch this with interest.

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, 72modeler said:

One of my buddies is about to finish the same conversion- looks like the Paragon/Hasegawa conversion is the way to go. I had to mix some sky paint for him so he could match the spinner and fuselage band to the Xtrakit decals- I have the Paragon conversion as well as an Xtrakit XII, and was very, very disappointed with the kit- horrible fuselage,  so will use a Hasegawa Mk VII as I want to do MB882 with the retractable tail wheel. Your finished build looks very nice, BTW! Maybe in the future, Eduard will start doing Griffon-engine Spits and will do a Mk XII/Seafire XV.

Mike

I always thought the Hasegawa fuselage was a little 'skinny', so in I went with Xtrakit: my first short run kit and my first attempt at airbrushing.  Reading the above, if Hasegawa is skinny, I now see that Xtrakit is positively anorexic.  No matter, it is already half built.  But the airbrushing: not the best subject on which to start (one lower and two upper colours with sky and yellow trims) did not go well.  But worse was to come: stripping off the masking tape, the butt-joined tailplane came away with masking still firmly adhering!  Carefully put to one side, it was somehow not there when I returned...  The canopy, of which there is some criticism elsewhere, seems OK or at least it fits!

 

So time for a new (rather than conversion) Xll.  Unlikely in 1/48 as Airfix have already tooled it.  In 1/72 it's hard to think of a mainstream who would tool it, and when I asked KP at Telford they were adamantly against it.  So now I hope the likes of Arma, (now that their Hurricane is virtually 'on the shelves') might take it on....

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3 hours ago, Denford said:

I always thought the Hasegawa fuselage was a little 'skinny', so in I went with Xtrakit: my first short run kit and my first attempt at airbrushing.  Reading the above, if Hasegawa is skinny, I now see that Xtrakit is positively anorexic.  No matter, it is already half built.  But the airbrushing: not the best subject on which to start (one lower and two upper colours with sky and yellow trims) did not go well.  But worse was to come: stripping off the masking tape, the butt-joined tailplane came away with masking still firmly adhering!  Carefully put to one side, it was somehow not there when I returned...  The canopy, of which there is some criticism elsewhere, seems OK or at least it fits!

 

So time for a new (rather than conversion) Xll.  Unlikely in 1/48 as Airfix have already tooled it.  In 1/72 it's hard to think of a mainstream who would tool it, and when I asked KP at Telford they were adamantly against it.  So now I hope the likes of Arma, (now that their Hurricane is virtually 'on the shelves') might take it on....

The CMR resin Mk XII is very nice, and being one of their earlier kits, does not have the prepainted etched set, but does have nice decals- they can be pricey, though. I guess with only 100 built and only two squadron codes possible, and with such a short service time, I guess they are not as desirable to a kitmaker as they are for the legions of model makers who have been patient but very vocal about wanting one! I have the Paragon and Aeroclub conversions, as well as the CMR kit, but being the lazy sod I am, I am waiting for a state of the art XII....maybe Sword or AZ Models? Eduard would be the best, but not holding my breath for that possibility!

Mike

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8 hours ago, 72modeler said:

The CMR resin Mk XII is very nice, and being one of their earlier kits, does not have the prepainted etched set, but does have nice decals- they can be pricey, though. I guess with only 100 built and only two squadron codes possible, and with such a short service time, I guess they are not as desirable to a kitmaker as they are for the legions of model makers who have been patient but very vocal about wanting one! I have the Paragon and Aeroclub conversions, as well as the CMR kit, but being the lazy sod I am, I am waiting for a state of the art XII....maybe Sword or AZ Models? Eduard would be the best, but not holding my breath for that possibility!

Mike

Don't hold your breath over Eduard!  What's not mentioned as we all know it, is that a new wing, or at least lower wing would be needed.  With Eduard Spitfires this is the largest single part!

For the somewhat easier 'development' of their Spitfire line, the PRXl, (almost ten times as many built as Xll) Eduard posted words to the effect that.. " whilst they could not rule it out in the long term, they had no immediate or medium term plans to tool one".

So the options are a) Conversions: but there is always the problem of the wing if starting with an lX  b) 'Limited run': as you say Sword or AZ to which I would add Arma or Brengun,, who bought Attack Squadron.  They produced a very nice Spitfire Xl, and depending on how much tooling etc remains would surely provide a good starting point.

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17 hours ago, NPL said:

The Hobbycraft Seafire Mk.XV is just awful, and you cannot use the nose for anything. You hardly notice the covers. It is also a very primitive product.

It looks like I'm back at square one...🙂

 

The kit I have in mind looked very good especially the nose.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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12 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

It looks like I'm back at square one...🙂

 

read this

you want a 1/48 Spitfire XII, get the Special Hobby kit.  OOB it's a lot better shapewise than the Airfix

 as seen here, (the UC legs are too far back BTW on this build ) from https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234936772-1-48-special-hobby-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii-low-altitude-fighter/

Special Hobby

 

MkXIIMar19-21_zps1475186c.jpg&key=dabb88

Airfix -  https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963939-spitfire-mk-xii-148-airfix-41-sqn-tangmere/

 

2.jpg&key=0202c076404f6e60c49cd84ffce33f

 

real

8033936163_04abfcf872_c.jpg&key=1c319390

 

the Airfix fuselage and fin are too deep, as the spinner is right, it looks fat and stumpy...

 

Fixing the Airfix compared to fisxing the SH kit is more work and you need new prop blades.

 

The Hobbycraft Seafire XV is from memory good shapewise, but it very basic detail wise.  I can't remember the fine details.   

 

BTW If somebody wants to come and be my secretary and photographer I'll dig all the kit and you can document them....    then the results might end  up being posted before 2021 or so.... :rolleyes:

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The Hasegawa fuselage is not only skinny, it's also too short between canopy and tail. This isn't immediately noticeable, maybe because it's also skinny , but try to apply decals of the correct size and they will not fit.

As a basis for a conversion ideally a Vc would be the best starting point, however these aren't really that available in 1/72 scale. At that point a Mk.IX is the second best choice, but would require modifying the wing because of the different radiatos. Can it be done ? Sure can, but if I had to do this on the Eduard Mk.IX for example, it may not be easy to reproduce the surface detail on the wing to match the Eduard parts. Guess we can only hope that one of the many Czech companies will make a new XII

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5 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The Hasegawa fuselage is not only skinny, it's also too short between canopy and tail. This isn't immediately noticeable, maybe because it's also skinny , but try to apply decals of the correct size and they will not fit.

As a basis for a conversion ideally a Vc would be the best starting point, however these aren't really that available in 1/72 scale. At that point a Mk.IX is the second best choice, but would require modifying the wing because of the different radiatos. Can it be done ? Sure can, but if I had to do this on the Eduard Mk.IX for example, it may not be easy to reproduce the surface detail on the wing to match the Eduard parts. Guess we can only hope that one of the many Czech companies will make a new XII

Giorgio,

My friend who used the Paragon XII conversion on a Hasegawa Mk IX cut the fuselage at the transport joint in front of the fin and put in a plasticard spacer to correct the too short fuselage- it looks very, very good, and he said all of the Paragon resin parts fit beautifully, especially the resin nose- just have to cut carefully along the panel lines; his is one of the Mk Vc based airframes with the fixed tailwheel. IIRC, he said the Xtrakit prop blades were OK, but he had to reshape them at the root- a very complex shape at that point, especially in 1/72! (See the attached link- modelers take note that the XII's did not have nav lights fitted to the wingtips- in the photo what looks like a nav light is the outer edge of the yellow ID stripe.)

Mike

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210115-griffon-spits-mk-xii-and-xxi-21/

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15 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Giorgio,

My friend who used the Paragon XII conversion on a Hasegawa Mk IX cut the fuselage at the transport joint in front of the fin and put in a plasticard spacer to correct the too short fuselage- it looks very, very good, and he said all of the Paragon resin parts fit beautifully, especially the resin nose- just have to cut carefully along the panel lines; his is one of the Mk Vc based airframes with the fixed tailwheel. IIRC, he said the Xtrakit prop blades were OK, but he had to reshape them at the root- a very complex shape at that point, especially in 1/72! (See the attached link- modelers take note that the XII's did not have nav lights fitted to the wingtips- in the photo what looks like a nav light is the outer edge of the yellow ID stripe.)

Mike

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210115-griffon-spits-mk-xii-and-xxi-21/

 

A spacer at the transport joint will indeed restore the missing length, but keep in mind that the length error is spread all over the fuselage. Said that, I personally built a couple Hasegawa Spit VIII in the past without worrying much about the wrong fuselage, they went together so well that I just built them even knowing of the various faults. Speaking of which, one small error in the Hase kit is the depth of the rear section of the canopy: hasegawa moulded this down to the canopy line instead of keeping the lower edge higher. Practically they made it as deep as on the pressurised types like the Mk.VII and PR.XIX while the rest of the canopy is of the unpressurised type. It's a small error that can simply be sorted with some sanding or just by painting the edge higher, but worth keeping in mind (guess who completed a pretty nice USAAF Mk.VIII and forgot about it ?)

With the fantastic Eduard SpitfireIX  available today for a price generally well below the Hasegawa kit, using the Japanese offering as basis for a Mk.XII conversion makes no sense, at least in Europe. Maybe a Mk.XII conversion for this kit may have some market, in any case I may consider attempting this myself. I can see a few potential problems with the way the Eduard kit is moulded and filling the space for the extra radiator may not be the easiest thing to do. There's also the matter of matching the impressive surface detail of the Eduard parts, not really easy.

In the meantime this thread has led me to check my Ventura Seafire XV to see if I could clone in resin the engine cowling... may not work as this has the intake mouth moulded integrally on the lower cowling. Removing this would leave a big hole...

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I've recently bought the Falcon Spitfire canopy set in order to get a Mk.VII canopy.  You mean I could just have used the one from my spare Hasegawa kit?   Whinge mumble moan.

 

Ah well, lots of other possible let uses for the other canopies in the set. the

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Mmm, more interesting - my thoughts was just to use the rear portion and the Eduard canopy and windcreen, although separating them may be fun. Hasegawa did do a boxing of the mk VII.

 

Is the Falcon set a 'proper' VII? The one in the Ventura kit was a standard Spitfire rear IIRC

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