451 Sqn PRU Spitfire IV

[FinnAndersen]

Recently found this old thread: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937019-pru-spitfire/&

 

It's about a Spitfire PR IV that was loaned to 451 Sqn. The aircraft was reported as being painted royal blue overall with pale blue and red roundels type B.

 

There was some discussion as to the type of film used (Ortho- or Panchromatic) and a responder called Feropete posted some alternative photos that he claimed was taken with an alternative film or filter. Unfortunately these pictures was posted using Photobucket, so is no longer available.

 

I'm asking this because I came across a picture in SAM #23 on Merlin Spitfires, where on pp 17 and 19 we have two similar pictures, where the fin flash is visible and clearly revealing the film as Orthocromatic. 

 

I'm inspired by the spitfire that Brett Green recently completed in HS (http://www.hyperscale.com/2018/galleries/spitfireprmkictamiyanew48bg_1.htm) and are  wondering if the idea of pale blue roundels is a misinterpretation.

 

 Cheers

Finn 

[JackG]

I recall that discussion linked to Britmodeller, and it would be nice if those photos were still available.   Some things to keep in mind is not all the PR Spitfires were coloured the same, nor were the markings always of the same style - throw in ortho film and that can make it a real head-scratcher.

 

Something I never paid attention to were these two photos, an example of a tail flash as a solid colour,

 

 

... while another has the upper roundels presented as one solid colour:

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Giorgio N]

I am personally still open to the possibility of roundels with a lighter blue on some PR Spitfires, but at the same time I don't feel sure about it, reason why my Sword PR-IV is still in the box some five years after I took part in the discussion linked above

Then there are pictures where the effect of having the outer circle of the roundel lighter is clearly only an effect of ortho film, like the ones you mention in the SAM book.

In any case, if roundels with a lighter blue were used, and I repeat if, these would have been mainly used on the dark blue painted Spitfires seen in the Med and later in SEAC. A standard PRU Blue painted aircraft like the one built by Brett Green would have had standard roundels.. where the word standard only means in the standard colours, as it's not easy to define much "standard" on PR Spitfires 😁

Edited December 10, 2018 by Giorgio N

[Giorgio N]

48 minutes ago, JackG said:

I recall that discussion linked to Britmodeller, and it would be nice if those photos were still available.   Some things to keep in mind is not all the PR Spitfires were coloured the same, nor were the markings always of the same style - throw in ortho film and that can make it a real head-scratcher.

 

Something I never paid attention to were these two photos, an example of a tail flash as a solid colour,

 

 

... while another has the upper roundels presented as one solid colour:

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

I'm not sure if the aircraft in the upper picture has a single colour fin flash, may just be that panel that for some reason was painted differently. Such a large fin flash would be pretty unusual while fin flashes were sometime not carried on PR Spitfires.

The bottom picture is even more interesting... I have seen this before and in the copy I've seen the upper roundel shows two colours as expected... the wider circle however is clearly lighter than the inner one, hinting at a lighter blue having been used here. The fuselage roundel and the fin flash however show the blue as darker than the red, suggesting that this was not taken with an ortho film. Is the uppere wing roundel actually painted using a lighter blue ? Or is this the effect of different light hitting the wing compared to the fuselage, so throwing off the colour sensitivity of the film ?

Not related to the matter of roundels, but it's interesting to notice the presence on this aircraft of the stiffeners on the upper wing skin over the wheel wells.

[Rob G]

Looking at a few PR.IV photos, it seems that the 'fin flash' is actually a panel. Why this one was replaced is anyone's guess, but it seems to be so.

http://spitfiresite.com/2011/02/spitfire-pr-mk-iv-aerial-spy.html

I doubt that the roundels were one colour. I have a feeling that what we're seeing here is the fallout from a whole pile of bad copies made from bad copies of the original negative- I can see a slight darkening of the roundel centre on my calibrated monitor (it's very slight, almost wishful thinking slight), and most people's monitors are much too bright to see it. The original with its odd effects as seen and cited by Giorgio could be a combination of worn paint (check the wing root!), incorrect exposure, the film and filter type, poor development and printing coupled with harsh overhead desert light bouncing off the wing. At this point, 80-odd years after the event, it's impossible to be specific.  (There also seems to be a camouflage separation line going through the fuselage roundel.) A puzzler for sure.

[Graham Boak]

I can make out a darker centre to the wing roundel on my monitor, and would point out that a number of photos of other aircraft (eg Bostons) show the upper wing roundel blue as a much lighter colour than the one on the fuselage, so I put this down to differential fading.

 

There are visible signs of what might be a camouflage pattern elsewhere on the machine, which would suggest a thin overspray of the top colour, presumably the ME PR colour based on ICI's "Bosun Blue".  Quite why a PR machine would have been delivered to the ME in camouflage is beyond me, and the likelihood of a machine being converted in theatre is very thin.  Perhaps it is a bowser wing fitted to a local airframe after damage to the original?  The serial should of course stay with the fuselage, which probably spoils that idea.

 

Another feature of the upper photo is the darker appearance of the entire cowling - this is also seen in a photo of a PR machine on Malta.  Yet it isn't visible on the lower photo.  The same machine as on Malta or evidence of a fashion?  I've seen it said that the colours on the cowling did get darker due to heating, but suspect this to be a long-term effect as there seems to be little if any photographic evidence.

[NPL]

Seems almost like an unpainted panel. Or something only with an indescript base colour Enhanced via GIMP.

 

[FinnAndersen]

4 hours ago, JackG said:

From JackG's post

 

 

Let's try to concentrate on this picture. Here we seem to have a Panchromatic image, where the blue roundel on the fuselage seems to be the standard colour and what could still be a dark blue color over all. The interesting observation is that the wing roundels may be the pale blue variant.

 

This is going to be though 🙂

 

/Finn 

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello Finn,

Adding more confusion to this topic in my opinion is the discussion in SAM November issue by Paul Lucas regarding Malta aircraft paintwork. I have long thought that Bosun Blue was the colour applied to the Middle East PR aircraft, but this article explains a great deal. As I’m building a PR. IV Spit, the roundel blue overall with Azure Blue roundels seems to make sense. 

 

Regards,

 

TW

[Graham Boak]

Yet on this one there is contrast between the blue of the fuselage roundel and the fuselage itself, or overall aircraft colour, which suggests that it is not the roundel Blue overall.  The only other dark blue in the RAF range is Dark Mediterranean Blue, which might be a possibility.  The overall patchiness of the finish (probably not underlying camouflage showing through) suggests a partial repaint.  So either new paint contrasting with older of the same original colour, or a mix of similar dark blues depending upon availability.  The addition of the white band to the fin flash does hint at a late photo of a long-lasting aircraft.

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello all,

if I am correct, the serial of the Spitfire in the first picture is AB312. In my opinion,it also looks like there’s an under wing roundel. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part,

but that scheme seems to fit other Malta based PR.IV, such as BR114, where there’s no fin flash, but underwing roundels.

I agree, the aircraft are probably Dark Med. Blue. The only evidence I have found of  roundel blue was a Hurricane PR.II, which I deduce to be roundel blue,  because of the light coloured rings outlining the roundels. 

 

Regards,

TW

[Graham Boak]

I only said that they might be Dark Med. Blue - certainly as an alternative to roundel Blue.  If it is a Malta-based aircraft delivered straight from the UK, then DMB is known to have been used on Malta on fighter Spitfires and this can be regarded as supporting evidence.   However if this/these are North African-based machines, then why not the colour known to have been used out of the Alexandrian MU?  (OK, I'll go and reread Lucas to make sure that he was writing about Malta-based machines not the ME as a whole.)

 

The light ring isn't conclusive evidence of identical colours, just that someone thought it necessary to add a little contrast.  White rings were also seen on PR Hurricanes in India, which according to Geoff Thomas were in the Bosun Blue-based colour.

[NPL]

59 minutes ago, Tony Whittingham said:

Hello all,

if I am correct, the serial of the Spitfire in the first picture is AB312. In my opinion,it also looks like there’s an under wing roundel. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part,

but that scheme seems to fit other Malta based PR.IV, such as BR114, where there’s no fin flash, but underwing roundels.

I agree, the aircraft are probably Dark Med. Blue. The only evidence I have found of  roundel blue was a Hurricane PR.II, which I deduce to be roundel blue,  because of the light coloured rings outlining the roundels. 

 

Regards,

TW

 

Or it might be that the underwing roundel has been painted out, b ut still shimmers through. There also seems to be a 'V' and perhaps more coming through at the strange panel at the til.

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

  White rings were also seen on PR Hurricanes in India, which according to Geoff Thomas were in the Bosun Blue-based colour.

Slightly O/T, but the rings used in India to differentiate dark blue roundels from the dark blue overall finish on PR Hurricanes (and also Mitchells) were Yellow: see Thomas: Eyes For The Phoenix eg pp.182, 183.

[Tony Whittingham]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I only said that they might be Dark Med. Blue - certainly as an alternative to roundel Blue.  If it is a Malta-based aircraft delivered straight from the UK, then DMB is known to have been used on Malta on fighter Spitfires and this can be regarded as supporting evidence.   However if this/these are North African-based machines, then why not the colour known to have been used out of the Alexandrian MU?  (OK, I'll go and reread Lucas to make sure that he was writing about Malta-based machines not the ME as a whole.)

 

The light ring isn't conclusive evidence of identical colours, just that someone thought it necessary to add a little contrast.  White rings were also seen on PR Hurricanes in India, which according to Geoff Thomas were in the Bosun Blue-based colour.

Hello Graham,

Lucas does make the point that AHQ Middle East (Egypt) declined to do a wholesale re-paint of Malta based fighters, but the PRU might have had more luck, due to proximity, and the small volumes involved. Just to go even further afield, I think that a Seafire 1b (MB340) seen at Mombasa might also be in that scheme. It would be an interesting thought. 😊 The Hurricane I was referring to was the one in “Eyes of the Phoenix “. White was not recommended for the contrast rings, IIRC.

 

TW

Edited December 10, 2018 by Tony Whittingham
Additional info

[Peter Roberts]

Picking up on Grahams point re: the darker cowlings, I would suggest what we are seeing is the effect of oil.

 

I believe the cowls on Spitfires became quite oily over time thanks to leaky engines, the ground crew continually wiping away these leaks, and being handled by oily hands.

 

This would also explain the slight sheen you can see on the panels.

 

PR

[FinnAndersen]

1 minute ago, Peter Roberts said:

Picking up on Grahams point re: the darker cowlings, I would suggest what we are seeing is the effect of oil.

 

I believe the cowls on Spitfires became quite oily over time thanks to leaky engines, the ground crew continually wiping away these leaks, and being handled by oily hands.

 

This would also explain the slight sheen you can see on the panels.

 

PR

interesting, but what colour under the oil?

 

/Finn

[Graham Boak]

The leaks are mainly seen underneath the aircraft, behind the cowl line.  Very mucky under there - there is a typical diagonal streak seen on Hurricane wheel doors that is due to these leaks.  The cowling may well have a sheen due to this, it's logical enough, but I don't think this dark effect would quite so obviously end at the rear of the cowling.

[Magpie22]

Hello Finn,

 

I am/was feropete: I had to change my log in name for reasons Not relevant here.

 

I think the photos I posted back then BP904 were:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The two shots that I believe were taken at the same time are below. I believe the upper shot was probably taken on Orthochromatic film without a filter, or a low rated R/Y lens filter. This film renders blues as a light tone and red as a dark tone on b/w prints. Note that the tone of the sky in the background is quite light, suggesting a lack of, or a quite weak, lens filter.

The lower shot I believe to have been taken on the same camera, using the same film but, this time, with a strong R/Y filter or, perhaps even a red filter. The effect of these filters is to darken the rendition of all blues, particularly those at the ultra violet end of the spectrum. A secondary effect is to slightly lighten the tone of reds. I make no comment on the actual colours on that aircraft - I'll leave that to the photo interpretation experts. I have had enough experience, over the years, of B/W photography and the use of various films and filters, to be very wary of using b/w prints as a data source without having a lot more research data to rely on.  A few final points;

• Do not rely on what your brain tries to translate into colour from b/w prints. B/W photography is a chemical process - it bears little relationship to the eye/brain perception of colours.
• The camera does not see the actual colour on an object. It sees reflected light. This will give different effects due to the surface finish, or as the angle of the object changes relative to the incident light, or whatever may be deposited on the object and acting as a sort of filter.
• Not just film type and quality, but filters used, quality of camera, time before and quality of film processing, and print processing are just some of the factors that affect the appearance of the finished product.

Cheers,

Peter M

 

 

[FinnAndersen]

Wow, Magpie22, thanks a million.

 

Not that it produces the definitive answer to my original question, the colour of the Spitfire, but at least I now have what is available to make my bid at a colour.

 

Looking at your first 4 pictures, especially the propellor tips, I conclude panchromatic film, with different filters. Having this, the next logical step is to admit that the roundel blue is non-standard.

 

So right now, I'm inclined at doing the Spit in Dark Med Blue (as this is an available colour) with azure blue in the roundels - clearly a striking and unusual Spitfire scheme.

 

Also thanks for the notes on B/W photography. I know that I cannot determine much out of these, but that's what is available, so we HAVE to do this. The only alternative is to do what a modeller did this year at Telford, namely to produce a Spitfire diorama in gray colours - a great joke. 

 

On a more serous note, I also take pictures myself and even with modern equipment have the problem of getting the right colours, there is a correction you have to make for the ambient light each time you take a picture. And just for completeness: Even over wartime colour pictures, we have had our discussions. A picture of a flight of P-51 mustangs springs to mind;  some had them as blue and others as green.

 

Again, thanks for your help, it's really appreciated.

 

Cheers

Finn

Edited December 11, 2018 by FinnAndersen
clarification

[Magpie22]

5 hours ago, FinnAndersen said:

Wow, Magpie22, thanks a million.

 

Not that it produces the definitive answer to my original question, the colour of the Spitfire, but at least I now have what is available to make my bid at a colour.

 

Looking at your first 4 pictures, especially the propellor tips, I conclude panchromatic film, with different filters. Having this, the next logical step is to admit that the roundel blue is non-standard.

 

So right now, I'm inclined at doing the Spit in Dark Med Blue (as this is an available colour) with azure blue in the roundels - clearly a striking and unusual Spitfire scheme.

 

Also thanks for the notes on B/W photography. I know that I cannot determine much out of these, but that's what is available, so we HAVE to do this. The only alternative is to do what a modeller did this year at Telford, namely to produce a Spitfire diorama in gray colours - a great joke. 

 

On a more serous note, I also take pictures myself and even with modern equipment have the problem of getting the right colours, there is a correction you have to make for the ambient light each time you take a picture. And just for completeness: Even over wartime colour pictures, we have had our discussions. A picture of a flight of P-51 mustangs springs to mind;  some had them as blue and others as green.

 

Again, thanks for your help, it's really appreciated.

 

Cheers

Finn

Finn,

 

You are correct. On further examination of those photos, I agree that they are more likely to be taken on Panchromatic film. Not sure whether I was having a brain fade, or too accepting that they were blue and red roundels, or just too quick to jump to the conclusion that the film was Ortho as is the case with the majority of RAAF photos I deal with. When I look at aspects of the print not related to the aircraft, e.g. the erk's overalls, (dark blue in the RAAF), the caps, (also dark blue), and the khaki uniforms, it becomes clear that the photos were not taken on Ortho film.

 

My comments re the effect of R/Y and R filters also apply to Pan film except, in the case of Pan film, the tones of the blues would be even darker, verging on black for a dark blue, and mid tone for Azur Blue, as is the case in the last shot. When this is all taken into account your conclusion that the roundel was Red and Azure Blue is quite supportable. It will make an interesting model.

 

By the way, all the shots I posted were taken on the same day, by the same photographer, and probably on the same roll of film. He was a professional photographer, so had access to all the filter 'goodies'.

 

I would have loved to have seen that diorama at Telford. 😁

 

Cheers,

Peter M

Off to don sack cloth and ashes, and eat humble pie      

[FinnAndersen]

1 minute ago, Magpie22 said:

...

I would have loved to have seen that diorama at Telford. 😁

...

Neither was I; saw it somewhere on the net : 

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPsmom3IpJRkSDUa0Ke9n3pYTn6vs4tOK2KZrUDqtJhCnjIzTxMXMU92dqB40caBw/photo/AF1QipOur_m1xXy5EN_R-DI8iZX_c5cYAAsG8f2Ggwtk?key=Mm13Q0ZTaHpkbVBUR1FTWTIzeUFYZk5NempXcWZn

 

bear with me, can't find out how to show the photo directly 

 

/Finn

 

 

[JackG]

Guys, great job on sorting out the filter effects and such.  I found this chart that helped me better grasp what was being described:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[FinnAndersen]

Need to bump this thread with an additional question

 

As I'm crawling along with my Spitfire theme, I have come to Spitfire PR IV(T) BP904 and wondering if seat and/or head armour was carried on these?

 

TIA   

/Finn

[Magpie22]

Hi Finn,

Do the following shots of BP904 help?

Peter M