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spruecutter96

Still buying 2nd hand kits at model shows?

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Hi

   my personal guideline is not to pay more than 50% of the 'new' price for a second hand kit 

 

  I only go higher on the odd kit that is hard for me to find 

 

    cheers

       jerry

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What makes a kit 2nd hand?

 

Unless you're collecting the kit with no intent of building it, then the bits in box generally don't deteriorate with age ( I'll  accept some older decals may).

 

To me a 2nd hand kit is one that's built.

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7 hours ago, Calum said:

What makes a kit 2nd hand?

Inner bags opened or missing.

Decals or instructions deteriated.

Box showing obvious signs of wear or damage.

Parts removed from runners.

Any parts painted.

Any assembly.

 

I may be unusually fussy, but to me 2nd hand means anything that shows signs of previous end user ownership.

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1 hour ago, 3DStewart said:

Inner bags opened or missing.

Decals or instructions deteriated.

Box showing obvious signs of wear or damage.

Parts removed from runners.

Any parts painted.

Any assembly.

 

I may be unusually fussy, but to me 2nd hand means anything that shows signs of previous end user ownership.

I'd add missing parts and additional parts.

I've bought second hand where the previous owner clearly had a project in mind because after market etch and/or resin was in the box. OK, not a devaluing thing, but obviously not factory fresh.

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Really the fact that someone else previously owned the kit makes it second hand as the kit, even if new, would not be covered by any form of customer protection that a shop would offer. If I buy a new kit from a shop and this has missing or damaged parts inside, for example a short-shot part, I can bring it back to the shop and get another. If I buy the same kit, even in the original shrink-wrap, from a modeller I can't hope to have the same treatment, at best he may give me my money back.

Age of course will not impact most plastic kits but may impact vacform canopies and sure impact decals. Regardless of age, the storage conditions may affect resin parts and again decals.

Mind, any of these things may or may not be a deal breaker: I may personally prefer an older issue with damaged decals but parts from a fresher mould (and decals in many old kits were rubbish even from new anyway),  I may not bother with a deformed part as this in my mind would be replaced anyway, I may not care about the box as boxes use space... but I'm reasoning as a modeller here, collectors have other priorities and dealers have to look at the matter differently

Edited by Giorgio N

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Isn't there also something about tax such as VAT?  My understanding is a second-hand kit shouldn't have tax added as it has already had tax charged when first purchased.

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But if the dealer is running a business and paying VAT on other items, then he is entitled to charge VAT on his sales?  Either way, he has added value in that he has bought it, stored it, and brought it to the attention of a customer.  Much as any other distributor or go-between.

 

If he is selling it as a private individual, then he isn't entitled to charge VAT. If he is a small trade running a business too small to bother the IR, then I don't think that he's entitled to charge there, either.

 

But I'm neither accountant nor tax whiz.

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Simple answer....no.

The laws of England and Wales state that taxation can only be levied once. As V.A.T. was charged at the time of the first sale, the purchase by the trader (second sale) carries nil V.A.T. and the trader cannot therefore legally charge V.A.T. on any subsequent sale, nor can the trader claim back V.A.T. for their purchase, as non was levied at the time of purchase, as it had already been paid. The comments about 'bought, stored and brought to the customers attention' are an everyday normality for any trader, whatever their business, and as such can carry no charge to be

passed on to a prospective customer. As for 'added value', where exactly, has the trader added the value?

Paul

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Hi

    apologies for thread drift 😀

 

   Wish that law applied in canada 

 

     second hand stuff is taxed again here, (even when you buy an old car tax is paid)  

 

  and custom duties are paid on the value of an item in canada, not what was paid for the item 

 

hence i aim for 'a 50% price'  or less when i buy  'not new' kit 

 

   cheers

     jerry

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55 minutes ago, PhoenixII said:

Simple answer....no.

The laws of England and Wales state that taxation can only be levied once. As V.A.T. was charged at the time of the first sale, the purchase by the trader (second sale) carries nil V.A.T. and the trader cannot therefore legally charge V.A.T. on any subsequent sale, nor can the trader claim back V.A.T. for their purchase, as non was levied at the time of purchase, as it had already been paid. The comments about 'bought, stored and brought to the customers attention' are an everyday normality for any trader, whatever their business, and as such can carry no charge to be

passed on to a prospective customer. As for 'added value', where exactly, has the trader added the value?

Paul

 The trader has added value by moving it from where it has been "lost" to the attention of another customer.  A model sitting in a dusty stack has no value, as this is something in the eye of a customer, and without the trader there is no customer.  Isn't this exactly what a model shop does, yet they charge VAT.  They get it from a distributor, who has done exactly the same thing i.e moving from "unwanted" to "wanted", and must pay VAT to him?  He in turn gets it from a producer, who charged VAT?   Which point of sale is the single point for the levying of taxation?  (I'm aware of the claim-back procedure, in principle at least.)

 

I take the point about someone who isn't paying VAT on goods then can't then charge VAT for passing them on.

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Blimey Jerry, @brewerjerry that's a bit rich....

When V.A.T. came in over here, after we joined the common market, what we'd previously had, purchase tax was replaced by V.A.T. on many things......except new vehicles.

That got 'missed'! until some years ago. We were told the price of a new car would fall by the cost of the purchase tax that had wrongly been levied for years, on top of the V.A.T. tax on tax.

That, of course, lasted about a nanosecond! as all of the manufacturer's suddenly had a price rise, surprisingly about the same amount as purchase tax.......conspiracy? you decide!! :whistle:

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5 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 The trader has added value by moving it from where it has been "lost" to the attention of another customer.  A model sitting in a dusty stack has no value, as this is something in the eye of a customer, and without the trader there is no customer.  Isn't this exactly what a model shop does, yet they charge VAT.  They get it from a distributor, who has done exactly the same thing i.e moving from "unwanted" to "wanted", and must pay VAT to him?  He in turn gets it from a producer, who charged VAT?   Which point of sale is the single point for the levying of taxation?  (I'm aware of the claim-back procedure, in principle at least.)

 

I take the point about someone who isn't paying VAT on goods then can't then charge VAT for passing them on.

 

O.K. first thing you have to bear in mind is the law see's only Black and White, NO shades of grey......ever.

As already stated, "The laws of England and Wales state that, taxation can only be levied once."

 

The item your refering to is a plastic model kit, not a 'barn find' 1920's Bugatti that has been returned to concourse condition, that's adding value.

How can it be classed as adding value by purchasing some, more than likely, poor unfortunates stash from the widow at around 10p* in the £?

*used purely as an example.

The idea behind the purchase of either half a dozen kits or the stash that recently came up in Canada of 11,000+ is simply to make money for said trader, end of.

Don't think there's any altruistic thought process, there ain't! Most of us have seen some traders going round the under table sales at regional shows,

beating down the seller, and 30 minutes later said kit is being offered for sale at 4, 5, or even 10 times the price paid, apart from said trader,

who is this adding value for?

 

You say "without the trader there is no customer" no, wrong way round, it's without the customer the traders role is moot. No customer = No business.

You go on to say  "Isn't this exactly what a model shop does, yet they charge VAT." The model shop has to keep annual statement of accounts, has to keep a record

for V.A.T. (unless under the threshold) and when purchasing new stock from manufacturer or wholesaler they have to pay V.A.T. on all new items, and then is obliged to charge V.A.T. to the customer, that's the law of the land, (England and Wales) If the trader should sells secondhand items, NO V.A.T. can be levied on any of these sales, due to it already having been raised on the original purchase. So it's cost + storage + transport + mark up = selling price with NO V.A.T.

Manufacturers offer a product, some is sold directly to retail, the rest goes through distributors / wholesalers, who are there to offer a service, this is to get a product to market. It has nothing to do with the perception of being an unwanted item that then becomes suddenly wanted, it's a business, and these businesses pay V.A.T.

The V.A.T. is levied by H.M. Government, if you intend to go into the retail trade, one piece of advice, DON'T try to work around the V.A.T. .....you'll loose...everything.

Any business that is registered for the collection of V.A.T. is deamed to be collecting this revenue stream, "for, and on behalf of, HMRC" it isn't yours.

That's why you're obliged to file a separate V.A.T. return, either quarterly, half yearly or annually. If, of course your registered for V.A.T. you can then make a claim for the V.A.T. you've paid to be refunded to the business, quarterly, half yearly or annually. The only other way to claim back V.A.T. is if an item or product is being 'permanently exported to a Country outside the E.U.' The P.O.S. or 'point of sale' for V.A.T. purposes is exactally that, the first time an item is sold.

 

Hope this helps clear some of the fog?

Paul

40 years in sales management, 18 years in retail, buyer for 10.

 

 

 

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An item not at market is unwanted, if only because no-one knows it is there.  A customer cannot exist if the item is not known.  Equally no trader = no business.  There is an equality in it, it is not and cannot be single-sided.  The idea that the customer is king is one of the assumptions of an ideal market - which do not exist in modern commerce if they ever did.

 

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Sorry, but there is VAT on second hand goods - you can choose to use a VAT margin scheme, which allows you to pay VAT on your profit margins arther than the sale cost, but it's still VAT

 

https://www.gov.uk/vat-margin-schemes

 

Only a private seller doen't charge/ pay VAT because it was paid when purchased - but if you are a trader, you do.

Edited by Dave Fleming

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Correct Dave, @Dave Fleming the trader is paying V.A.T. on the profit, but they still can't charge V.A.T. to the customer at the point of sale for a second hand item.

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The VAT thing is way outside of the original topic and creating friction so please end that debate now.

 

Thx

 

Julien

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Last night I had a chat with a friend at our modelling club who does some show trading. He commented that sales of second-hand kits had slowed, though buyers still seemed to have plenty of cash for new often expensive kits.

 

For my part I don't do much buying at shows any longer, as I now generally go to just two or three a year, my stash is quite big enough and second-hand prices are too high for regret free impulse buying.

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I think a couple of things factor in - many of the older kits that were once were the only option have now got more modern alternatives.

 

Secondly, the internet means that most traders have an idea what price they want to charge, so bargains are harder to come by (Indeed I often see second hand kits trading at or above the price of the same kit in a 'new' boxing.).

 

It's sometimes only the unusual that catches the eye - I usually spend time trawling the boxes of vac forms for things that I want.

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On 12/19/2018 at 9:17 PM, 3DStewart said:

Inner bags opened or missing.

Decals or instructions deteriated.

Box showing obvious signs of wear or damage.

Parts removed from runners.

Any parts painted.

Any assembly.

 

I may be unusually fussy, but to me 2nd hand means anything that shows signs of previous end user ownership.

I agree some of the above would constitute 2nd hand.  But things like deteriorated details, parts of sprues and box damage is pretty common on stuff form model shops . 

On 12/19/2018 at 10:45 PM, Giorgio N said:

Really the fact that someone else previously owned the kit makes it second hand as the kit, even if new, would not be covered by any form of customer protection that a shop would offer. If I buy a new kit from a shop and this has missing or damaged parts inside, for example a short-shot part, I can bring it back to the shop and get another. If I buy the same kit, even in the original shrink-wrap, from a modeller I can't hope to have the same treatment, at best he may give me my money back.

Age of course will not impact most plastic kits but may impact vacform canopies and sure impact decals. Regardless of age, the storage conditions may affect resin parts and again decals.

Mind, any of these things may or may not be a deal breaker: I may personally prefer an older issue with damaged decals but parts from a fresher mould (and decals in many old kits were rubbish even from new anyway),  I may not bother with a deformed part as this in my mind would be replaced anyway, I may not care about the box as boxes use space... but I'm reasoning as a modeller here, collectors have other priorities and dealers have to look at the matter differently

I think the consumer protection is probably the best definition I've seen. That said a kit could go through many owners and then end up at shop again to be sold.

 

I often buy extra kits when I buy online and sell those onto other. I don't consider those kits 2nd Hand.

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Some valid point's being made here could it also be that with the mass of Chinese and other Asian maker's covering more and more subject's that

there's now no need to fall back on older original's that were the only game in town as far as certain subject's are concerned? I love to rumage the

pre-owned stall's at the Northern show and try to temper my purchase's between my LMS and KK during the year.

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The last time i went to a event the numbers of secondhand kits where overwhelming but didn't found a thing that i really needed!

For me the only thing of interest was the aftermarket stuff as i have most kits that i wanted in the past ...

And maybe i am not the only one!!

Some vendors do have special nice kits but at prices that can make your hair turn white in over a second...

At the moment there are some very nice kits in design so will wait for those as welll...

Cheers, Jan

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I would consider a kit as being used as soon as manufacturer seals have been broken or packaging has been damaged or is in poor condition; even if you expect contents as new. If box has been opened, the buyer has either check contents or take it on trust the model kit is complete. 

 

A bit difficult with Tamiya kits which have no manufacturer seals, or seals that are weak or have failed.

 

Paul

 

 

 

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Models can be pretty expensive in Australia so the second hand market is alive and well.

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