leyreynolds Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Any thoughts on a match in enamels please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Ron Belling, in his excellent A Portrait of Military Aviation in South Africa, suggests (p.155) that a number of Sky Blues were used on South African aircraft. What aircraft type are you interested in and in what timeframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyreynolds Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Aircraft in East Africa 1940- 41. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardcastle Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 The East Africa Sky is a more grey-blue than the British one. Agree about the Belling book. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, leyreynolds said: Aircraft in East Africa 1940- 41. Not sure I or, more importantly, Ron Belling can help you then. Ron's unique contribution was his personal observation and recording of aircraft in South Africa. He does say a little bit about colours in North Africa and Italy but nil about East Africa, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I don't know whether this has been inspired by the new book SAAF Fighter Colours by Marshall and van Schalkwyk, but if not then you'd like it. SAAF Sky Blue is represented inside by something only slightly more intensely blue than the RAF colour, but less so than the colour photos available of the Hartbees in the SAAF Museum. For a match, I have a tin of Humbrol 65 which looks good on the tin lid but I'd suspect is a little dark, ditto Colourcoats RLM78 which appears too intense a blue. Colourcoats RAAF Sky Blue with a bit of Colourcoats Azure Blue mixed in would get you close. The best match would seem to be Colourcoats USN Thayer Blue. I'm assuming that the artwork has been done a little bit lighter than the original colour, otherwise the RAAF Sky Blue would be the closest, but as that's the same as RAF Sky Blue there'd be no need for a specific SAAF colour. I would also assume that the SAAF was aware of the Light (ME) Blue colour which led to Azure Blue; this also leads to the conclusion that the SAAF colour was more intense than the RAF Sky Blue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 30 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: I don't know whether this has been inspired by the new book SAAF Fighter Colours by Marshall and van Schalkwyk, but if not then you'd like it. SAAF Sky Blue is represented inside by something only slightly more intensely blue than the RAF colour, but less so than the colour photos available of the Hartbees in the SAAF Museum. For a match, I have a tin of Humbrol 65 which looks good on the tin lid but I'd suspect is a little dark, ditto Colourcoats RLM78 which appears too intense a blue. Colourcoats RAAF Sky Blue with a bit of Colourcoats Azure Blue mixed in would get you close. The best match would seem to be Colourcoats USN Thayer Blue. I'm assuming that the artwork has been done a little bit lighter than the original colour, otherwise the RAAF Sky Blue would be the closest, but as that's the same as RAF Sky Blue there'd be no need for a specific SAAF colour. I would also assume that the SAAF was aware of the Light (ME) Blue colour which led to Azure Blue; this also leads to the conclusion that the SAAF colour was more intense than the RAF Sky Blue. Thayer Blue you say (maybe not a bad shout Graham): Render added to assist discussion. Also Azure Blue RAAF Sky Blue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyreynolds Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Thanks for all that info'. It's given me plenty to ponder upon. Ley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Hi. For which a/c ??? There were differences depending on a/c type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyreynolds Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 A Hurricane and perhaps a Mohawk IV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 According to the new book referenced above, the Mohawks retained RAF Sky undersides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Hi. Sorry I am only replying now. The Hurricane MK I's and erly MK II in east Africa were delivered with white/black undersides. The Furies came in RAF Sky. A document dated 25 Aug 1940(Graham, I posted that document many years ago, you have copies) to East Africa HQ from RAF HQ stated that the Fighter undersides were in the process of being painted from white/black to Light Middle East Blue, which SAAF would have had as Sky Blue. The SAAF Sky I understand to be same as Duck Egg Blue, as I have seen documents explaining to the squadrons that Sky is the same as Duck Egg Blue. Now, what colour was Light Middle east Blue?? In RAF chips of that time there was no specific Light Middle east Blue, as far as I have ever seen. Lewis and Berger, the paint producer in South Africa, also does not ever show that colour in their inventories, but Sky Blue. Also, Lewis and Berger supplied the Far East RAF squadrons, as well as the Middle East, so the colours must be the same as the SAAF . So, safe to say Hurricanes Sky Blue and the Furies Sky(Duck Egg Blue) undersides Hope it helps Stefaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 (edited) Light ME Blue was a colour created in the Middle East, before the adoption of Azure Blue. It didn't exist in Air Ministry chips in the UK. There has been discussion of this on this site, with research from Nick Millman describing this colour and how it was created. It will be somewhere in the discussions on the so-called spaghetti scheme seen on Hurricanes and Fulmars in early 1941. It seems very likely to me that this colour is, or was developed from, the colour samples sent back to the UK that led to the adoption of Azure Blue. It was not duck egg blue, because that is just another term for Sky which was not considered acceptable in the ME because it was too light. It surely cannot be Sky Blue because that colour was even lighter than Sky. So if the colour named SAAF Blue can be considered as of a more intense hue than Sky Blue. Whether it is exactly the same as Azure Blue or even Light ME Blue, is I think unknown, but it presumably lies closer to these than to Sky Blue. I have seen a colour photo of the Hartbeest in the SAAF Museum with just such a blue, though I've no idea of the thinking of the curators. It is possible that the SAAF considered the pale RAF Sky Blue to be suitable but in that case why adopt a variant of Light ME Blue at all? Nonetheless finer details can go by the board in an emergency. PS I was thinking perhaps of this one Which however is NOT the one defining Light (ME) Blue. I have not yet been able to find one that did. There is a lot of relevant information in this one which you will doubtless recognise, Stefan. There are a number of other threads yet to search... oh for someone (Paul Lucas?) to tie these together and publish them in one place. Or perhaps I need to be looking in his articles. Edited December 13, 2018 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Hi. The document I am referring to is under the discussion LT and early RAF Colours. To Edgar/Nick. Do you know what colours or chips/Standards are referred to when colours are mentioned as L.T. 2 or 3 or 4?? The date on the document is 1937?? Thx Stefaan. Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:25 PM. Try and find that thread. Graham, it was from RAF HQ to East Africa, so not a SAAF order. I have never seen any referral to 'SAAF Blue or SAAF Light Blue ' pertaining to WWII in all my years of research. Nor any order to paint any SAAF a/c in any other colour than RAF specs or USA colours for our American derived colours. If that order told them to paint the a/c Light Blue underside, it would have been a RAF variant and not a SAAF variant. The Sky was same as Duck Egg Blue as seen in the British Aviation Colours of WW 2 colour chips--- a more green yellow version as compared to Sky Blue. Stefaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 This one? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefaan Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Hi Steve. Yes, but the document is not visible. Adding it via FliKR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Thanks for re-posting this document. I don't recall seeing it before (which may simply be my memory, of course). Your previous comments have made clear that the SAAF did not adopt this colour. Therefore they will have received their Hurricanes in the UK Sky Blue, or repainted them in Sky Blue (using UK or locally-provided paints), and left them in this colour upon transfer to East Africa although the local instructions there were for the different Light (Middle East) Blue. Which wouldn't surprise me, and has the benefit of being a very simple answer to the original question: use the ColourCoats RAAF Sky Blue. I presume that South African supplies of Sky Blue were effectively identical to the UK colour, and thus the references to SAAF Sky Blue in the recent booklet do not refer to anything other than this. However it seems odd that it was thought necessary to distinguish only this colour in this way, which implies to me some difference to the standard RAF Sky Blue. However perhaps this is a question for the authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyreynolds Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 Thanks for all the extra info'. I'll get the book Graham mentioned earlier and see what it has to say. Ley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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