RAF B-17 with large ? nose gun ( 40mm ? ) and chin mod

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Any info or serial on the B-17 with the letter E on the nose with the large gun  ? 

     

 

 

  you need to swipe the photos to find it 

 

 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/defenceoftherealm.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/aircraft-gallery-b-17s-in-the-royal-air-force/amp/

 

 

  cheers

    jerry

Edited December 6, 2018 by brewerjerry
link

[Admiral Puff]

An experimental fitting of a 40mm cannon, alsem those used on the Hurricane IID. For U-boat busting, IIRC. Alf Granger did a three-view drawing which was published a while back in either Wingspan or Planes. Sorry, haven't got a copy to post, but I'm sure someone else will oblige.

[Jure Miljevic]

Serial, according to Watanabe's profile, is FK185. I remember seeing close-up photos of cannon installation somewhere, but I cannot remember where. I have been contemplating a conversion of an Academy B-17 E kit into 40-mm armed version to disguise its somewhat undernurished nose (the same problem with Revell B-17 G kit), but never proceeded with. Cheers

Jure

[Jonny]

3 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    Any info or serial on the B-17 with the letter E on the nose with the large gun  ? 

    

‘Zooming in’ the photo makes the serial a little easier to read and it looks like the FK185 as June suggests.  The overall scheme seems to be a rather worn RAF Coastal Command.  I’d guess and suggest the ‘E’ and serial are dull red but I hope wider heads could confirm that.

 

Could the cannon be a 6 pounder, as used in the TseTse Mosquitos?   Those aeroplanes were used to attack U boats. Just a thought.

 

Jonny

[Seahawk]

The aircraft is Fortress IIA FK185, ex USAAF (4)1-2514, ex NR-E of 220 Sq and the gun a 40mm Vickers S gun in a Bristol B.16 nose turret.   The experiment was a response to the inadequacy of forward-firing Fortress armament (one 0.30" Browning that frequently jammed after the first round) against U-Boats, culminating in the loss of Fortress II FA704 "R" of 206 Sq to U-417 on 11 Jun 1943: no doubt the crew, which included the squadron CO, made their views known forcibly after drifting around in heavy seas for 3 days!   The aircraft was taken from service with 220 Sq, whereupon the NR codes (aft of waist window) were painted out (though still faintly visible) but the individual letter E (forward of waist window) retained and repeated in a darker colour on the new nose.  The aircraft was tested at A&AEE from December 1943: 700 rounds were fired.  During trials all other armament was removed.  The aircraft was subsequently converted back to standard configuration and arrived with 251 (Met) squadron on 4 April 1945.

 

The gun had limited traverse and elevation and was sighted by a gunner in the gondola under the gun.  I seem to recall that sighting the gun was the main problem with the installation: it wasn't as simple as just pointing the aircraft at the target.   I could be wrong about that though in Stitt's book a 220 Sq crewman says it was unusual to have the time to correct the fire even of the 0.30" gun during an attack.

 

A port side view of FK185 at A&AEE in Feb 44 in Mason The Testing Years and Stitt: Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service shows very heavy weathering, especially to the fin, exposing the Olive Drab paint and original serial underneath.  Stitt even has photos, from the Boeing archive, of the internal arrangements.

 

Like Admiral Puff, ISTR some nice drawing of the installation in Planes or Wingspan: the sort of off-beat subject that Planes in particular excelled in.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Seahawk

[Jure Miljevic]

There is not much one can add to Seahawk's post except that it is suggested that colour showing through on vertical tail is Deep Sky Blue of original camouflage scheme. Cheers

Jure

[dogsbody]

A few pictures from the article in PLANES Vol.1 No. 1, 1981.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[JohnT]

I do hope they gave the gunner some good quality ear defenders

[Admiral Puff]

2 hours ago, dogsbody said:

A few pictures from the article in PLANES Vol.1 No. 1, 1981.

 

 

 

Chris

That's the one! I knew I'd seen it somewhere ... Almost makes me want to do a conversion!

[dogsbody]

I have posted it before, on other forums and perhaps here. If you need a larger scan, just let me know. The magazine is right here beside the printer/scanner.

 

 

Chris

[Admiral Puff]

Thanks, but the drawing above is dimensioned - I reckon I can work from that.

[dogsbody]

Then I await your conversion.

 

 

Chris

[brewerjerry]

Hi All

         Many thanks to all for the info😀

            cheers

               Jerry 

[robstitt]

Jure’s reference to Deep Sky emerging from beneath the weathered white on the modified Fortress IIA FK185 may have originated with a series of updates I created for the first edition of my book. A still from a film taken at Dorval of a B-17E on delivery to Britain in the spring of 1942 appears to be of 41-2514, alias FK185, painted in Temperate Land with Deep Sky sides and under surfaces, one of two schemes applied to the first 20 or so aircraft delivered. The other scheme was standard USAAC Olive Drab and Neutral Grey.

 

On reflection, I was perhaps a little too emphatic in the updates that it was FK185.

 

But if it is 41-2514 - only the last digit needs confirming - then that would confirm the aircraft in the film is FK185 and the emerging colour on the tail and fuselage sides of the modified cannon-equipped aircraft would be Deep Sky. I’m still working to confirm this.

 

Robert

Edited February 11, 2023 by robstitt
Clarification