Jean Offenberg Spit Vb Drop Tank

[sprue]

In his diary Offenberg mentions the jettisoning of a drop tank from his Mk Vb. This would be the latter part of 1941. What kind of tank would that be ?

[Graham Boak]

30 gallon slipper tank.

[gingerbob]

It would be an awfully precocious one!  I have a feeling he jumbled memories, because drop (slipper) tanks weren't in service until early '42.  First use (not counting trials, etc) was for deliveries to Malta, and when they came to home-based units (around Mar '42 at earliest), it was initially particular squadrons that had Spitfires equipped to use them (first Vcs, but soon Vbs also).

[Graham Boak]

I don't think it was the 30gall that was used on deliveries to Malta, but a larger one.  Whichever, the only earlier tank would be the fixed leading-edge one on one wing.  Given his death in January 1942, it might perhaps be asked whether it really is a genuine period quote or something the biographer thought would be right.  I think I lost my copy some decades back, so can't check the context myself.

[gingerbob]

I'm sorry, I didn't know that he died in Jan '42.  Nevertheless, I stand by my comments.  Doing a bit of internet searching, I see that he was killed in AB188, which was a very early Vc, noted by a Supermarine document as built without fittings for the slipper tank (these fittings were coming in at the same time that Supermarine was introducing the Vc).  According to the record card (assuming that it is correct), AB188 first flew on 29 Nov 41, went to 609 Squadron on 11 Dec, and crashed on 22 Jan.  Interestingly, I noted that this was a peculiarly early date for a Vc to be issued to a squadron (AFDU got one in late Dec, Central Flying School got one on 17 Dec).  It is probably also the first Vc to be written off.

 

I would like more information on the quote from his diary.  I am not familiar with the book, though perhaps will now correct that.  Again, sorry if my take on this seems insensitive, but these are the sorts of puzzles that one runs into when you start researching.  (I had not had a name connected with the loss of AB188.)

 

I'll also go take a look at "Aces High", though may not get to it right away.

 

bob

[sprue]

Thanks for all of the input.

According to the book "Lonely Warrior" the quote which refers to the drop tank is taken from an action on November 15th 1941 when 609 operating out of Biggin Hill were escorting "Hurri-bombers" over Northern France. 2 days later the squadron moved to Digby.

According to Alfred Price writing in "The Spitfire Story" the Vc started to appear in October 1941 with fittings under the fuselage for 30 or 45 gallon drop tanks as operational range was becoming an issue.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that the Spitfire I'm researching in September 1941 W3574 PR-M was indeed a Mk Vb while some time later the 609 started to receive the Vc. As far as I can tell the references to drop tanks only appears at the end of 1941 when I assume 609 was receiving the new Vc as they were flying over northern France regularly.

[Graham Boak]

We can be sure that W3574 wasn't a Mk Vc,  just from the serial.  It is interesting that operations with the slipper tank did occur that early, and that it could perhaps have been the larger tank, though I still think the smaller one more likely.   The Hurricanes (607 Sq?) wouldn't have been going particularly deep.

 

References plural makes it more convincing.  Also, the Mk.Vc wasn't' very common in UK service so using them with the tanks for escort duties makes a lot of sense.  I do however suspect that Mk.Vb with the fittings wouldn't be far behind.

 

 

[gingerbob]

Well, I've ordered the book!

 

As I said, the drop tank fittings were coming in at the same time that the Vc was (and yes, first Vc was completed in October '41), and I have quite a few documents following the situation.  One, referred to above, is a Supermarine answer to a query listing by serial the Vbs and Vcs delivered with and without the fittings.  Meanwhile, stocks of slipper tanks were being tracked, and accumulated at one or two (don't remember offhand) specific bases, for the use of the planned soon-to-be-equipped squadrons.  First (home-based) priority was replacing the IILR squadrons- we're talking 2-3 squadrons.  Meanwhile there was the push to get some Spitfires to Malta, and the slipper tanks were an absolutely essential requirement for those aircraft.

 

It obviously wasn't as simple as, "Oh great, we've got a handful of new replacements that can use slipper tanks, that'll be handy on the next op!"  For one thing, it does no good to have a few Spits with drop tanks if the rest don't have them.

 

It'll be a week or two before I can see the book for myself.  I'll report back when I've had a chance to comment on it.

[serial modeler]

I remember that book fondly as it was the first warbook I read in English way back in the 80's. It inspired me to make his Belgian Fiat CR42 in which he flew in May and I believe even evacuated to France after Belgium's demise. Great book and fond memories.

[gingerbob]

It occurred to me a little while ago that it is rather surprising that something as significant as "first operational use of drop tanks by Spitfires in Fighter Command" is so uncertain!  I suppose it wasn't considered quite so significant at the time.

 

Hmm, perhaps this gives some insight into the question: (from PRO AIR 16/638/93B, July '42) The report also comments on the improved "defensive system" (radar, etc) and intro of Fw 190:

Quote

 

9. the Germans, after receiving considerable punishment, adopted new tactics.  Instead of climbing out to intercept our raids before they reached the coast, they were content to gain their height in the back areas and then move to a superior tactical position, i.e. up sun and with superior height, from which they intercepted our formations inflicting fairly heavy losses.

 

10. To counter this, we were forced to reduce the depth of our penetration and finally had to content ourselves with attacking targets along the enemy coast line.

 

 

Not much use for drop tanks if you're not penetrating anyway.

 

 

Also, did dig out "Aces High".  This gives W3236 used for claims of 22 June '41 (109E dam) and 7 July (109F kill) - these are his first two Vb claims.  Several probables follow in July and August, with no serial tie-in.  W3574 is given for the final two claims, 27 Sept and 13 Oct, both 109s "damaged".

Edited December 4, 2018 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

They still improve endurance so that you aren't placed at a disadvantage by having to leave the fight - or try to.  Plus it does leave you with the option of a deeper penetration.

[Troffa]

As a side bar to the above, readers may be interested in this old thread with pictures of the ill-fated AB188, in which Offenberg met his end, following a mid air collision with another RAF Aircraft.

Mk Vc AB188 photographed as a Forestry Commission presentation aircraft. 

 

Cheers,

Troffa

 

Sptfire Vc AB188 Forestry Commision Spitfire

 

[gingerbob]

I've been poking around in the ORBs today, and in early September he's still consistently flying W3236.  On 17 September it was 'holed', and the record card indicates repaired on site.  On that day he then flies W3315.  I don't see him again until 1 October, and for the next three (?) days he flies AD202.  On the 9th, assuming that the ORB is accurate, he is reunited with W3236, apparently for the last (operational) time.  On 13th he flies W3574 (apparently for the first time on an op).  On 21 Oct "Lt. Choron" flies W3236 on two sorties, but that appears to be its last ops with 609, and the record card says it went to AST (Air Service Training, part of the civilian repair organization) on the 29th.  (It next went to 310 Squadron in late Feb '42.)

 

Offenberg flies W3574 on ops again on 23rd and 26th Oct, but on 27th he flies first W3705 and then AD348.  I'll have to look at November later...  [Edit: W3705 is the aircraft of choice from then on.]

Edited December 6, 2018 by gingerbob

[Peter Roberts]

 

Bob, any word in the ORB about the use of drop tanks?

 

Maybe there is evidence in the length of their patrols, suggesting endurance beyond that normally associated with a Spitfire?

 

PR

[gingerbob]

Not that I noticed.  I did think about duration, but didn't pay any attention to that.  I looked at the November ops that "Sprue" mentioned, and even looked at one or two Combat Reports.  Of course, not mentioning isn't proof.  (There WAS one description of a prang owing to running out of fuel, though I don't remember when that happened.)  I also saw no mention of AB188, either being used operationally or even "...a new type of Spitfire V came today, to the interest of the pilots."  [***Edit: see later post for update.]  My theory, with the early arrival of this one- always assuming that the records are accurate, of course- is that it might have been a "loaner" for some operational types to check it out, but NOT to be used on ops.  There are certainly other examples of such things happening.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by gingerbob

[sprue]

13 hours ago, gingerbob said:

I've been poking around in the ORBs today, and in early September he's still consistently flying W3236.  On 17 September it was 'holed', and the record card indicates repaired on site.  On that day he then flies W3315.  I don't see him again until 1 October, and for the next three (?) days he flies AD202.  On the 9th, assuming that the ORB is accurate, he is reunited with W3236, apparently for the last (operational) time.  On 13th he flies W3574 (apparently for the first time on an op).  On 21 Oct "Lt. Choron" flies W3236 on two sorties, but that appears to be its last ops with 609, and the record card says it went to AST (Air Service Training, part of the civilian repair organization) on the 29th.  (It next went to 310 Squadron in late Feb '42.)

 

Offenberg flies W3574 on ops again on 23rd and 26th Oct, but on 27th he flies first W3705 and then AD348.  I'll have to look at November later...

Many thanks for this. Referring to Lonely Warrior Offenberg was on leave in Chichester in Oct and returned on the 22nd. But on Oct 21 Maurice Choron "who piloted Offenbergs aircraft" M for Monkey ran out of juice returning from an op over N France and crash landed some where in the country.

All this seems to tally well and therefore I'm content that Offenbergs usual aircraft was W3236 PR-M.

While I'm at it the same operation according to the book reveals PR-K as Sgt Palmers aircraft who was killed during this operation and Vicky Ortmans was also shot down but was picked up out of the channel.

Incidentally in the latter part of the book there are a few mentions of Spits running low on juice so I can imagine duration was becoming an issue over France.

[gingerbob]

from the ORB: (21 Oct- in the morning, Palmer and Ortmans shot down, as you mention)

"After lunch the squadron (15 a/c including W/C Rankin, leading an extra section) sets off with [unreadable number] a/c of 91 Squadron to search the Channel.  The search is fruitless, but leads to a number of tragi-comedies which help to [dispel?] the gloom.  F/O Malengreau, instead of taking Ops' vector home, flies off on a reciprocal, leading his section straight to France.  After much anxious R/T conversation, his followers decide to desert.  The flight has, however, led to petrol shortage, and mist makes ground visibility practically nil.  All [pilots?] need a homing, and the R/T log contains priceless examples of excited French.  Lt Choron force-lands in a field near Rye, F/O Malengreau lands with 7 other pilots at Hawkinge (smugly referring to the amount of flak he experienced near Boulogne), Sgt Rigler lands at Lympne, others at Manston, and only 4 at Biggin, these including Sgt Evans with 6 gallons of petrol after 2 hours and 20 minutes in the air."

 

[sprue]

I'm tempted to think that W3236 PR-M was still in Dk Earth / Dk Green / Sky camouflage in October 1941 but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to say one way or the other. I can't find any photographs so I think it might have to be an informed guess.  Here's hoping

Mike

[Graham Boak]

2 months seems to be a long time for a frontline aircraft to retain its obsolete scheme.   You most probably would be correct in painting it like that for an earlier date, but then no tanks...

[sprue]

17 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

2 months seems to be a long time for a frontline aircraft to retain its obsolete scheme.   You most probably would be correct in painting it like that for an earlier date, but then no tanks...

Hi Graham

Yes I see what you mean, 2 months is a long time.

Mike

[gingerbob]

I looked in August, which seemed like the likely time for changeover of camo, and saw no mention of squadron wide repainting.  However...

 

Hmm, 18 August: (summarizing an op)

"...and the presence of a mysterious Spitfire with old type camouflage and seemingly no lettering."

 

31 August:

"Noted that E/A wearing our own old-type camouflage..."

[Graham Boak]

The RAF had something of a "thing" about the Germans sneaking around in British camouflage, so this is something the squadrons would have been alert to at the time of changeover, and indeed why such changeovers were generally done "immediately" rather than lingering on.  The Army had the opposite approach, where changes in camouflage was generally not to be universal ASAP but carried out only when vehicles required repainting anyway.  There were always Army units who ignored this rule as pride required leadership with the latest colours, and I suspect the same would have been true of RAF units.

[gingerbob]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:58 AM, sprue said:

Incidentally in the latter part of the book there are a few mentions of Spits running low on juice so I can imagine duration was becoming an issue over France.

 

Indeed! 

 

Merry Christmas [eve], everybody!  It took a little longer than anticipated, but I finished "Lonely Warrior" yesterday, which I very-much enjoyed reading.  (I read it quickly, it just took a while to arrive.)

 

I note that the few references to "reserve tanks" are all in sections by Houart, never Offenberg's own words.  (page references are Mayflower paperback, 1970 reprint)

 

p. 149 [between July and August '41 diary entries] "The fighters from Gravesend airfield, now flying Spitfire Mark VBs, armed with 220 [sic] mm cannon and four 303 machine-guns, had not sufficient range to escort the heavy bombers over German territory.  Equipped with reserve tanks of only thirty gallons they had to be content to operate within a reduced radius.  As a general rule Biggin Hill Wing operated over northern France and patrolled the Pas de Calais."

 

p.181 (3 October, by comments) "Offenberg led his section down in a half-roll.  The four 609 pilots jettisoned their reserve tanks."  [This on an escort mission while 92 Sqn is engaged, but Offenberg's section does not find the fight.]

 

p.196 (27 October?  Shortly before leaving for Digby) '"Drop your babies."  Gilroy had just given the order to jettison the reserve fuel tanks.'

 

That's it.  Frankly I think it is some creative writing on the part of Houart- the first comment, about Vbs, is unquestionably wrong for the time.  As I said before, my evidence all points to the fittings for slipper tanks being introduced into Supermarine production near the end of 1941, and operational use not before Feb/Mar '42 at the VERY earliest.  I don't know how much retro-fitting was done to Mk.Vs subsequently, but there are some clues that it may not have begun before about June '42.

 

The question of camouflage I've already addressed above, and found no fresh clues.

 

On the subject of AB188, there was one mention in the ORB of Offenberg, "flying the Spitfire Vc," taking it to 37,000 feet [10 Jan].  The 92 Squadron ORB entry concerning the accident also says that he was flying a Spitfire Vc.  I am quite satisfied, therefore, that the records are correct that it was, in fact, AB188, which was, in fact, a Vc.  It only remains to discover how 609 Squadron had the aircraft, at Digby, well before any other combat unit got one.  Edit: this website identifies it as PRoY.)

 

(I may be back with a wee bit more about W3236...)  Edit: Well, first tidbit, it was a presentation Spitfire, "Llanelly".  Interesting article, but some errors...

Edited December 27, 2018 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

OK, here we go...

 

The first Spitfire Vbs arrived for 609 Squadron on 27 and 28 May.  First operational use was on 9 June (‘A’ Flight only, but after that the IIs are gone).

 

W3236 arrived on 1 June, according to the record- first flight had been 16 May.  The first mention I could spot in the ORB was on June 16, flown by Wilmet.  [While this squadron’s “Summary” went into great detail about parties, etc, the “Record” only listed Operational sorties.]

 

Offenberg arrived on June 17, and the next evening was on a scramble in W3180- Bisdee was flying W3236.

 

’36 was flown by Seghers the next day, de Hemptinne (who had transferred with Offenberg) on the 20th, and Mackenzie the 21st.  Offenberg’s first op in her was on June 22nd.  He was already flying her pretty regularly after that, but also used four other aircraft to the end of the month.

 

“Pyker” used W3236 on at least one sortie every single day from July 1 to 9, including his first kill with the squadron on the 7th.  (He also flew W3115 on one sortie on the 2nd.)  Only twice in July did other pilots fly her, and Offenberg only did one other op in another aircraft, though I couldn’t make out the serial.

 

A similar pattern is true at least for the first half or so of August, though Offenberg was also on leave for five days, returning about the 14th.  Later in the month 3236 seems not to be on ops (perhaps time for a heavier servicing?) and W3574 is used several times.  While I didn’t look at this in August, from September on the latter is the mount of choice for Malengreau, though as you’ve seen, it continues to be an alternate for Offenberg.

 

On 17 September, while on a second sortie for the day, W3236 gets damaged by enemy fire, and is not on ops again until 12 October, when Offenberg damages the prop upon taxiing in from a sortie (p.183 in my book).  He does not fly her again, at least on ops, for Choron runs short of fuel and force-lands in her on the 21st.  Per the individual aircraft record she goes to AST (Air Service Training, part of the Civilian Repair Organization) on October 29, and next goes to a squadron in February. 

 

One other thing.  The book makes a few references to "M for Monkey", but it isn't particularly clear which airframe this belongs to, and again it appears that they're only in Houart's sections.  Perhaps the most clear reference is when Choron prangs her (p.191), but at another time (p.177/8) 'M' is cited when Offenberg is actually flying W3574.  This, however, is 28 September, after '36 has been shot up, so it is possible that 'M' was transferred from the one to the other at that time.  The ORBs gave me no help with that question.  Unfortunately, to be really sure we'd have to tie it up with either logbook entries or mentions in the diary.  There's a slight chance that I'll actually be able to do that... stay tuned.

Edited December 26, 2018 by gingerbob

[sprue]

Well done Gingerbob. I'm following your research with great interest. Hope you you had a good Christmas.