B24 H Liberator interior colours

[cherisy]

Hi

I gathering reference materiel for one of 223 sqns 100 Group Bomber command B24s. Im using the Haynes  Liberator Manual as a main point of reference. My question is this: What are peoples take on the colours for the cockpit/Fuselage?. Im using Humbrol paints ( Im a tad old fashioned) The nose and cockpit/radio compartment seems to be 149 but am undecided as to the rear fueslage. It seems to be a variation on olive green  88/105 or almost RLM02. Can anyone shed any light?

Thanks in advance

[T-21]

Checked Martin Streetlys book for internal RAF Liberator colours to no avail. Howe er for night ops I am sure the nose area would be matt black. The flight deck was in a dark green padded quilt material like B-17s. To reduce light reflection the rest of the rear fuselage in interior green. Until somebody else comes up with solid facts this is my own interpretation so do not flame my thoughts.

The pilots seats armour plating was removed in 100 Group Libs and the waist gunner positions to reduce weight. In 223 Sqdn the flight engineer wore a US life preserver only as he had to squeeze into the bomb bay to check the Jostle equipment.

[Seahawk]

I have always found this site reliable (or at the very least a good starting point):

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/interior-colours-of-us-aircraft-1941-45-part-ii/

 

Upshot: Dull Dark Green for cockpit and forward crew compartment, natural metal the rest.  I could understand repainting the forward crew compartment black on a late Fortress, which would otherwise have been in natural metal (though even then not a task to be undertaken lightly) but to my mind Dull Dark Green is sufficiently near to black to make repainting of marginal advantage.  But I don't know that for sure.

 

Like you, I am very happy with Humbrol 149 for Dull Dark Green.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Seahawk

[Dana Bell]

There were a number of variations on B-24s, but Dull Dark Green was certainly standard for the "officers' quarters" for a very long time.  Very generally speaking, the aft fuselage interior color depended on the exterior color as applied at the factory.  Since the skin was made of Alclad, corrosion wasn't considered a big issue, but contact of the unprimed skin with the unprimed, simple alloy interior framework led to galvanic corrosion (electrons moving between dissimilar metals.  Originally, B-24s left the framework unprimed to save money, but dipped the formed skins in yellow zinc chromate primer baths prior to assembly.  When the AAF abandoned camouflage, they were left with several bright yellow B-24s!  The solution was to dip the framework in the primer bath, and attach the unprimed skins.  Aircraft that were subsequently camouflaged received a spray coat of exterior primer before the camouflage.

 

With so many factories building Liberators, I can't be certain that all of them followed the same procedures, but I haven't seen the exceptions yet...

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[Seahawk]

Thanks, Dana.  Would I be correct in interpreting that to mean originally Yellow Zinc Chromate inner skins with aluminium formers and later aluminium inner skins with YZC formers?  Any pointers on whenabouts the changeover took place?

[Dana Bell]

Hi Seahawk,

 

Yes, I think that about sums it up.  The changes came in late 43/early 44 as each factory abandoned factory-applied camouflage for AAF Liberators.  I know many of the Navy's Libs were camouflaged at depots, but I'm not sure who painted the Coastal Command aircraft; regardless, the interiors would have been unchanged unless the US Navy or British authorities insisted on adding a coating of interior primer (of whih I have no knowledge.)

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[cherisy]

Throwing a spanner in the works so to speak, The Collings foundation B24 Witchcraft certainly corresponds to the dark green forward cockpit/radio cabin  and nose area but appears to have a green almost akin to RLM 02. Ive just found some great 360 interior shots of B24 " Strawberry Bitch" which show the entire interior to be a light almost chromate green. Like you say I guess its down to the factory at the time. The version I intend to do was a Ford Willow run aircraft.

[72modeler]

You have to be very careful when using restored aircraft as color references for both exterior and interior colors. At war's end Strawberry Bitch was earmarked for display in a postwar museum envisioned by Hap Arnold; she was parked outside for many years in Arizona along with many other famous aircraft from WW2. Before she was flown to the AFM (by a B-47 pilot, BTW!)  in 1959, she was 'restored.' (See the link below for how badly she had weathered before being flown to the AFM) Since her arrival, she has been repainted at least two other times that I know of, and each time the colors, location, and style of the markings and lettering applied have strayed farther and farther from their original appearance- compare the photos in the link to what she looks like now to see what I mean. I have been inside Witchcraft on two occasions and while I'm no Dana Bell, it appeared to me that the cockpit colors were pretty accurate, but the primer applied from the cockpit aft  appeared to me to be  a commercially available tinted zinc chromate primer, which is not as dark as the original ANA interior green, which I believe was FS34151. (B-24's were built at several plants and could have been given a variety of interior primer/paint finishes, as Dana has stated.) The Collings Foundation's philosophy is that their aircraft are part of a flying museum, so their primary concern is safety, maintenance, and function-because of this, they are more concerned with the exterior of their aircraft, not so much the interior- modern instrumentation/avionics, etc. are substituted or augmented from the original fit so the aircraft can be operated and be in compliance with FAA safety and ATC operating requirements. I found a link to some photos of the original Witchcraft so you can compare it to the restored airplane.  I would imagine it is pretty darned expensive to finish a large airplane like a B-24 with matte camouflage paint, which is not going to last very long, but rather use a more durable modern finish that is as close to the original color/s as they can get. Sure doesn't detract from the hard work and expense put forth by both organizations to preserve/operate a B-24. The leadership and standards of the AFM staff seem to have been more responsible in recent years in trying to make their restorations as accurate and true to the original as possible; with the subject not being nearly as popular with the general public and with budgets and manpower being slashed every year, it's a wonder they are able to do as much as they have! Just an uninformed opinion of a non-expert but an avowed lover of WW2 aircraft!

Mike 

 

http://www.armyaircorps-376bg.com/42-72843_strawberry_bitch.html

 

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/b24_flights/witchcraftHistorical.html

[cherisy]

53 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

You have to be very careful when using restored aircraft as color references for both exterior and interior colors. At war's end Strawberry Bitch was earmarked for display in a postwar museum envisioned by Hap Arnold; she was parked outside for many years in Arizona along with many other famous aircraft from WW2. Before she was flown to the AFM (by a B-47 pilot, BTW!)  in 1959, she was 'restored.' (See the link below for how badly she had weathered before being flown to the AFM) Since her arrival, she has been repainted at least two other times that I know of, and each time the colors, location, and style of the markings and lettering applied have strayed farther and farther from their original appearance- compare the photos in the link to what she looks like now to see what I mean. I have been inside Witchcraft on two occasions and while I'm no Dana Bell, it appeared to me that the cockpit colors were pretty accurate, but the primer applied from the cockpit aft  appeared to me to be  a commercially available tinted zinc chromate primer, which is not as dark as the original ANA interior green, which I believe was FS34151. (B-24's were built at several plants and could have been given a variety of interior primer/paint finishes, as Dana has stated.) The Collings Foundation's philosophy is that their aircraft are part of a flying museum, so their primary concern is safety, maintenance, and function-because of this, they are more concerned with the exterior of their aircraft, not so much the interior- modern instrumentation/avionics, etc. are substituted or augmented from the original fit so the aircraft can be operated and be in compliance with FAA safety and ATC operating requirements. I found a link to some photos of the original Witchcraft so you can compare it to the restored airplane.  I would imagine it is pretty darned expensive to finish a large airplane like a B-24 with matte camouflage paint, which is not going to last very long, but rather use a more durable modern finish that is as close to the original color/s as they can get. Sure doesn't detract from the hard work and expense put forth by both organizations to preserve/operate a B-24. The leadership and standards of the AFM staff seem to have been more responsible in recent years in trying to make their restorations as accurate and true to the original as possible; with the subject not being nearly as popular with the general public and with budgets and manpower being slashed every year, it's a wonder they are able to do as much as they have! Just an uninformed opinion of a non-expert but an avowed lover of WW2 aircraft!

Mike 

 

http://www.armyaircorps-376bg.com/42-72843_strawberry_bitch.html

 

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/b24_flights/witchcraftHistorical.html

Mike that's food for thought thank you and I envy you being able to get inside a "working " B24.  I wasn't aware that the AFM B24 had been restored at all or so many times. It's a good point I hadn't considered. The Bleinhem at Duxford is a case in point. It's interior green is way too dark. Thanks for the link too. I've heard that one of the only unrestored Libs is the one owned by Kermit Weeks

[Steve N]

Don't use the Strawberry B***h as any kind of color reference..the interior has had a lot of inaccurate repainting.  The nose compartment was originally Dull Dark Green, but was repainted light "interior green" at some point.  The bomb bays were also repainted..they were originally Neutral Gray.  The cockpit has also had a fair bit of "interior green" sprayed here and there.  My friend Karl Haffe photographed the interior extensively sometime in the late 70s/early 80s (the photos are available on Hyperscale.)  The nose was still Dull Dark Green then, but the bomb bay had been rather sloppily sprayed "interior green," covering wiring, plumbing, accessories and placards, although Karl said you could still make out the original Neutral Gray here and there in nooks and crannies protected from the spray.  The aft fuselage interior is Zinc Chromate Yellow throughout, but I don't know if that's original or not.  Most wartime photos show the waist section of B-24s mostly unpainted.

 

SN

[72modeler]

11 hours ago, Steve N said:

Don't use the Strawberry B***h as any kind of color reference..the interior has had a lot of inaccurate repainting.  The nose compartment was originally Dull Dark Green, but was repainted light "interior green" at some point.  The bomb bays were also repainted..they were originally Neutral Gray.  The cockpit has also had a fair bit of "interior green" sprayed here and there.  My friend Karl Haffe photographed the interior extensively sometime in the late 70s/early 80s (the photos are available on Hyperscale.)  The nose was still Dull Dark Green then, but the bomb bay had been rather sloppily sprayed "interior green," covering wiring, plumbing, accessories and placards, although Karl said you could still make out the original Neutral Gray here and there in nooks and crannies protected from the spray.  The aft fuselage interior is Zinc Chromate Yellow throughout, but I don't know if that's original or not.  Most wartime photos show the waist section of B-24s mostly unpainted.

 

SN

Yep- I was really saddened when I saw the interior of "The B****," especially when you consider that she was pretty much all original in fit and colors when she was put into outdoor storage at the end of the war. (These people had absolutely NO regard for future model builders! Ha!

Mike