serial modeler Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) I just recently got done reading James Kyle's Typhoon Tale and of course got inspired to do a model of his Typhoon MkIB JP 682 OV X of 197 squadron. In his book he has several pictures of squadron machines and they all display these curious zigzags on the inside of the gear doors, both the big ones enclosing the wheel strut and the shorter, central ones enclosing the wheel itself. They show pretty prominent on all the pictures of at least the early Mk IB "car door" machines. Any ideas about the purpose of these things? Strangely I did not see those on machines of other squadrons. They look to be either white or silver as they stand out pretty prominently from the background interior green. Edited November 30, 2018 by serial modeler insert image 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) hi Side view of i/d stripes, better photo here Cheers Jerry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Typhoon#/media/File%3AHawker_Typhoon.jpg Edited November 30, 2018 by brewerjerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, brewerjerry said: hi Side view of i/d stripes, better photo here Cheers Jerry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Typhoon#/media/File%3AHawker_Typhoon.jpg It's not the Invasion stripes he's on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Possibly the squadron's WW1 markings when they were based in Egypt? I can't find a photograph to verify this so it's just supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 7 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said: It's not the Invasion stripes he's on about. Agreed, but the bands on the outer doors are the earlier identification markings not the equal width invasion stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britman Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Zigzag 's on the inner doors. I can see what you mean, after many years of looking at photos such as this, it is new to me. I wish I could help. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Nigel Bunker said: Possibly the squadron's WW1 markings when they were based in Egypt? I can't find a photograph to verify this so it's just supposition. 197 had no aircraft when it was formed in WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) I knew Jimmy Kyle quite well and helped him find photos for later editions of his book and wrote the Foreword. The photos of Typhoons with the zig-zag marking all depict the same aircraft, as illustrated above; JP504 OV-Z, Sqn Ldr 'Jacko' Holmes' aircraft. It has appeared on a few decal sheets over the years, usually omitting the interesting markings, although I believe Eduard have got it right in a recent 1/48 boxing. The aircraft also featured a prominent white (or possibly yellow) 'Z' on the LE edge of each wing, between the cannons and the wing root. One of the photos in the book shows Holmes in front of the aircraft, with a clear view of the zig-zag on the black inner side of the main undercarriage leg. The photo also appears in 'Typhoon and Tempest Story' p.64. The purpose of the markings was to identify the CO's aircraft when forming up on the ground prior to take off. Other examples are known, primarily 182 Sqn, who used stripes or chequers to identify squadron or flight commanders' aircraft. The zig-zag actually follows a line of rivets on the inner skin of the doors; I believe it could have been tape to protect the rivets from corrosion. I have another photo taken in early 1944 which shows the zig-zag in similar fashion but without (apparently) a background colour. Incidentally, the inner side of the doors and the whole wheel bay were normally painted in 'Aluminium', not 'interior green'. It is quite difficult to interpret the markings on the inner (small) doors because of the low angle and brightness of the sun, but I think they were black with white tape(?) too. On the other hand, they could be Aluminium with just the tape added. CT Edited December 1, 2018 by Chris Thomas First para 'door' replaced by 'side' 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serial modeler Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) Wow, that is fantastic bit of news. So they were the leader's markings for easy identification on the ground? That makes sense and also makes it easier for me not to have to worry about those on OV X , James' favorite aircraft and the one he apparently flew on D Day. Also, I noticed that 197 squadron carried their own version of invasion stripes way before D Day, in fact it looks like they were carried way back in 1943 and were only on the undersides with those characteristic wide white and narrow black stripes. Do you know if for D Day they were carried over the tops of the wings and fuselage added or they just left them alone? In that book artwork below it portrays his OV X clearly flying over an invasion barge but no invasion stripes on tops or fuselage, just those undersides. Is that "artistic license" or fact? Also I am having a really hard time determining if his underside wing bomb pylons were actually black ( the black stripe would have been there ) or left in the original gray, the pictures on the internet are way too grainy to see this. Edited December 1, 2018 by serial modeler missed word 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejboyd5 Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Let's remember that as early as 1942 the Typhoon was decorated with four 1' black stripes under each wing to aid in friend/foe identification for what was then a new type. In late 1942/early 1943 this special identification was amplified by adding white paint between the black stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantomphixxer Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 The black & white stripes were an identification aid, to stop friendly fire incidents, as Typhoons resembled FW190’s from certain angles. See Typhoon page on Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 8 hours ago, ejboyd5 said: Let's remember that as early as 1942 the Typhoon was decorated with four 1' black stripes under each wing to aid in friend/foe identification for what was then a new type. In late 1942/early 1943 this special identification was amplified by adding white paint between the black stripes. 8 hours ago, phantomphixxer said: The black & white stripes were an identification aid, to stop friendly fire incidents, as Typhoons resembled FW190’s from certain angles. See Typhoon page on Wikipedia If you bother to read the first post its NOT the ID stripes the OP is asking about. Its the zig-zag markings on the inside of the wheel well doors 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britman Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Some interesting contributions to this post and most informative. My conclusion from the above is that it is not conclusive but should be fine for sensible interpretation on a model without necessarily getting it "wrong". Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Post 9 however continues to need some amplification. These early stripes were removed in early 1944. The ones carried on D Day and beyond were all of equal width. By the end of July they were removed from upper surfaces and then from all wing surfaces. These applied to all Typhoon units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 10 hours ago, serial modeler said: Wow, that is fantastic bit of news. So they were the leader's markings for easy identification on the ground? That makes sense and also makes it easier for me not to have to worry about those on OV X , James' favorite aircraft and the one he apparently flew on D Day. Also, I noticed that 197 squadron carried their own version of invasion stripes way before D Day, in fact it looks like they were carried way back in 1943 and were only on the undersides with those characteristic wide white and narrow black stripes. Do you know if for D Day they were carried over the tops of the wings and fuselage added or they just left them alone? In that book artwork below it portrays his OV X clearly flying over an invasion barge but no invasion stripes on tops or fuselage, just those undersides. Is that "artistic license" or fact? Also I am having a really hard time determining if his underside wing bomb pylons were actually black ( the black stripe would have been there ) or left in the original gray, the pictures on the internet are way too grainy to see this. No, you don't have to worry about the 'zig-zags' on JP682 but a historically accurate depiction of the aircraft on and after D-Day is going to be difficult. The cover painting was done by John Batchelor, a well-known aviation illustrator, in response to Jimmy'd directions. It shows Jimmy's first 'op' on D-Day. Jimmy was convinced that his squadron did not paint the D-Day stripes over the upper surfaces and we had some discussion about this. But having interviewed many (well into 3 figures) veteran Typhoon pilots I know the fallibility of memory when compared with records and photos. I would still back my opinion that 197 Sqn followed orders and full set of stripes were applied. 197 Sqn was part of a 146 Wing which, during the Invasion period, was based at Needs Oar Point - one of the temporary airfields built for the invasion. Few photos of the period have come to light but there is one of a 193 Sqn Typhoon (one of the other units of the wing) with full stripes and there is one of a 197 Sqn Typhoon wreck in Normandy which seems to have stripes completely round the fuselage (the stripes were applied in distemper and wore off quite quickly). If you go for full stripes, there is then the question of how the code letters were dealt with; some units painted over them and re-applied them in some form on the forward fuselage or tail fin. They would very probably have been applied over the bomb carriers (on the outer black stripe as you suggest). They were applied in a hurry on June 3/4 as D-day was expected on June 5. JP682 had been built as a 'car-door' Typhoon (and, incidentally, was the subject of the well-known Charles E Brown colour photo, with the serial partly taped over) and saw service as such with 56 Sqn as US-L. it went for canopy and RP mods in February 44 and went to 197 Sqn after that (c,May 44). It was damaged on 13 July 44 and after repair went to 183 Sqn as HF-O. So, 3-blade prop, small tailplane (horizontal stabiliser!). Returning to the original photo you posted of OV-Z, Jimmy's aircraft at the time was OV-X EK141 and would have been virtually identical but for the serial number, codes and S/L's pennant (and probably the zig-zags). This aircraft was destroyed on 20 November 43 when a returning Halofax bomber made an attempt to land at Tangmere but crashed into the servicing hangar, killing all the crew and writing off 6 Typhoons, including 4 from 197 Sqn. Jimmy soon got a replacement, JR201, one of the last 'car-door' jobs but with a whip aerial. Hope this helps more than it hinders! CT 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 For me it looks like some kind of reinforcement of the wheel bay door, which perhaps was not present in later production series. Here some structure is seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serial modeler Posted December 1, 2018 Author Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Chris Thomas said: JP682 had been built as a 'car-door' Typhoon (and, incidentally, was the subject of the well-known Charles E Brown colour photo, with the serial partly taped over) and saw service as such with 56 Sqn as US-L. it went for canopy and RP mods in February 44 and went to 197 Sqn after that (c,May 44). It was damaged on 13 July 44 and after repair went to 183 Sqn as HF-O. So, 3-blade prop, small tailplane (horizontal stabiliser!). Returning to the original photo you posted of OV-Z, Jimmy's aircraft at the time was OV-X EK141 and would have been virtually identical but for the serial number, codes and S/L's pennant (and probably the zig-zags). This aircraft was destroyed on 20 November 43 when a returning Halofax bomber made an attempt to land at Tangmere but crashed into the servicing hangar, killing all the crew and writing off 6 Typhoons, including 4 from 197 Sqn. Jimmy soon got a replacement, JR201, one of the last 'car-door' jobs but with a whip aerial. Hope this helps more than it hinders! CT CT, thank you so much for all the details. Since my kit is definitely a car door Typhoon IB and I definitely want to model Jimmmy's OV X it seems my only option would be to do his replacement after the accident, that is JR201 with the whip aerial. I assume it was also coded OV X. Any thoughts if it was likely to carry the "X" on the leading edge, just like Jacko's aircraft? Would it have carried the RP's or still just the bomb pylons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 OV-X JR201 was equipped as a bomber; 197 never used RP. X on the LE or not is a difficult call. I've only one photo from that period that shows the LE and that a/c has no letter there. Regarding JP682's possible appearance, I'd forgotten a photo which shows a 197 Sqn Typhoon, OV-Y MN859, in July 44. On the port side the Y aft of the roundel has obviously been repainted after the upper surface stripes had been removed. It still carried an additional Y below and forward of the windscreen which replaced the one which had been obscured by the stripes. On the starboard side it would have been the OV that was obscured and therefore reproduced further forward. With full stripes JP682 may well have had similar temporary markings. CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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