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None of these I'm sure will be new to @Sabrejet, but I have been trolling for Korean War  Sabre photos, and thought I would share them with you. I will add them as I find them. I hope you enjoy them and that they are new to you. The photo of Shernador II is not a period photo, as I just now noticed it has  been painted with silver paint and there is what looks like a Buccaneer  next to it, so I'm guessing is a preserved example- my mistake, but I got sooo excited when I saw a 2 Sq. Springbok Sabre photo!

Mike

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/4b/88/2a4b88726e4f8d8be64c0236a0082830.jpg

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/59/44/c159440fc89f846210bcd78ed878d770.jpg

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/8e/06/828e064ffa44c67ff579e83bc60a26ce.jpg

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/my_public_domain_photos/5413515820/

 

Edited by 72modeler
added text for clarification
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1 hour ago, Tony Edmundson said:

'Shernador' is a Canadair Sabre 6, while your first image posted is a Canadair built F-86E-6-CAN(Sabre Mk2).

Tony,

 

Been a while since I've heard from you regarding Sabres! Question- in re-examining the photo I posted of Shernador II, it looks to me that it has a slatted 6-3 wing, as evidenced by the removable small triangular section of the leading edge, which was necessary to clear the ammo access door/step. The original Shernador, IIRC, was an F-86F-10 that had the narrow chord slatted wing. I have attached a link I just found with some outstanding photos of No. 2 Sq. SAAF Sabres in Korea and there is a photo whose caption states that there was only one No. 2 Sq Sabre (Lady of Lorette)  that had the 6-3 wing, but it had no slats. Might the photo that I posted be a later Sabre 6 with the slatted 6-3 wing, and so not truly representative of a Korean War No, 2 Sq. F-86F, but is painted to represent one? What do you think? Maybe @Sabrejet can help us? I do love the F-51D's and F-86F's that the Springboks flew in Korea- beautiful airplanes and aggressively flown by veteran pilots!

Mike

 

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7069&start=0

 

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Off topic, but when the 35th FG moved back to Japan from Korea in 1951, they flew F-86Es, I believe. They had a yellow band on the tail. Pictures of their aircraft in Japan are pretty rare, or was when I looked thru old Japanese magazines twenty years ago. Do you have any more info on this? Also when the 4th FIW moved back to Japan after the Korean War, they later removed the yellow tail band but kept the unit insignia. Some of the old Koku-Fan Specials had a few pictures. Any more info?

 

Grant

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1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

Tony,

 

  Might the photo that I posted be a later Sabre 6 with the slatted 6-3 wing, and so not truly representative of a Korean War No, 2 Sq. F-86F, but is painted to represent one?  

Yes, I suspect that is the case.

 

Tony

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1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

 I have attached a link I just found with some outstanding photos of No. 2 Sq. SAAF Sabres in Korea and there is a photo whose caption states that there was only one No. 2 Sq Sabre (Lady of Lorette)  that had the 6-3 wing, but it had no slats.  

Mike

 

 

In Korea, if it had a 6-3 wing then that meant no slats.   Only the Sabre 6 had a 6-3 wing with slats(not counting the -40)

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1 hour ago, Gmat said:

Off topic, but when the 35th FG moved back to Japan from Korea in 1951, they flew F-86Es, I believe. They had a yellow band on the tail. Pictures of their aircraft in Japan are pretty rare, or was when I looked thru old Japanese magazines twenty years ago. Do you have any more info on this? Also when the 4th FIW moved back to Japan after the Korean War, they later removed the yellow tail band but kept the unit insignia. Some of the old Koku-Fan Specials had a few pictures. Any more info?

 

Grant

Grant,

 

35th FIW was assigned eleven F-86E-1; twenty-six F-86E-10 and fourteen F-86E-6 CAN (a total of 51 F-86E) from November 1953. These appear to have only equipped two squadrons (the 40th FIS and 41st FIS at Johnson AB, Japan); the 39th FIS being attached to 51st FIW and based at K-13 Suwon during this period. 40th FIS aircraft wore a red tail band with black borders and 41st apparently a yellow version. All were with the Wing until phased out and returned to the USA from December 1954 thru March 1955.

 

Couple of photos:

 

51-2745, 51-2840

 

51-2736

 

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Thank you all for this very informative thread--apologize if I am taking this thread one more deviation off track, but I have a very basic question on the NMF F-86 that I have not been able to find an answer on (I am sure I missed lurking somewhere out there).  As everyone knows, NMF P-51Ds had their wings lacquered to improve the laminar airflow--is a Korean War F-86 wing NMF or lacquered?  I understand the slats/flaps were likely NMF, so I guess my main question is if the darker center portion was lacquered or bare metal (I thought read somewhere the darker center section was milled and left in bare metal following the machining process).  Thank you all for any info & I apologize to @72modeler if I took this to far off track--FWIW, you are getting me excited about tackling an F-86 next.. thank you for the informative thread .... Best, VT Red Sox Fan   

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I have found in my research thst early on they were nmf. Then the center panels were painted in anti-corrosion grey. Light aircraft grey, ADC grey, & Lt. Gull grey have been said to be close matches. Something like these photo’s. When i did my Sabre-Dog i used gull grey. 

JrczBVM.png

4zUJxn6.png

tAQbVD9.png

d7dnYZN.png

SVancTC.png

Later these were all overpainted in silver/aluminum lacquer for anti-corrosion purposes. 

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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That wing box (centre portion) was milled from billet, so that the skin thickness could be optimised and incorporate stringers integrally (weight saving/strength); the rest of the wing is sheet aluminium. For that reason, the centre portion was anodised and so what you see is a dull silver finish, not a lacquer or a paint finish.

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Well @Sabrejet I trust your opinion on all things Sabre/fury so I wont doubt that. I have talked to several other modelers over the years, and have read a number of builds that go both ways. I also helped restore an F-86F in the 1990’s. Even the museum i worked with at the time painted it in Lt. Aircraft grey. Admittedly that was a restoration so again not trustworthy. That being said i will in the future just paint it slightly different aluminum color ? 

 

Dennis

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@Corsairfoxfouruncle & @Sabrejet--you guys rock!  This thread is now the most clear cut discussion of this ongoing discussion on this topic--I usually use foil & Alclad 2 (for compound curve areas) for my builds--based on the above, I am thinking an shade like Alclad 2 steal to replicate vice the dull side of foil.  @72modeler--I hope I didn't highjack your thread to much w/ the graduate level F-86 knowledge crew--this elementary level kid fully appreciates the ability to ask and share info... best Erwin 

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2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Well @Sabrejet I trust your opinion on all things Sabre/fury so I wont doubt that. I have talked to several other modelers over the years, and have read a number of builds that go both ways. I also helped restore an F-86F in the 1990’s. Even the museum i worked with at the time painted it in Lt. Aircraft grey. Admittedly that was a restoration so again not trustworthy. That being said i will in the future just paint it slightly different aluminum color ? 

 

Dennis

Dennis,

 

I'll get the correct data for you - I know it's in a Tech Order somewhere but I think it was also detailed in an issue of North American's "Skyways" magazine too. The key point is that the rest of the wing (fairings, leading edge, trailing edge, ailerons, flaps etc) is mostly made of constant-thickness Alclad (or similar) pressings, whereas the wing box is milled from a block and quite different in its makeup. What you see on the centre wing section is just a different chemical treatment: it's also why you can make out fasteners in a different colour, which highlights that these panels weren't painted during production.

 

ADC Gray was however specified as an anti-corrosive treatment for F-86Ls (and Ds?), due to corrosive effects of the rocket armament.

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9 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

For that reason, the centre portion was anodised and so what you see is a dull silver finish

IIRC, you can see the same dull anodized areas on the center wing box of B-29's- very visible in most photos and a feature, if done correctly, that really improves the look of a  model. Some have mixed a dull silver-grey paint, and some have painted the anodized area flat black then overpainted with silver, which takes on a dull appearance because of the coarser black undercoat. I have a mix that looks pretty good, but it's a Floquil old silver/primer grey formula- that should tell you how old I am!

Mike

 

@Corsairfoxfouruncle- you really do  have to take restored airplanes with a grain of salt, especially 'natural metal' finishes; due to corrosion issues and the fact that the outer layer of alclad has been polished away over the years, many have been painted silver. For example, 'Happy Jack's Go-Buggy,' the P-51D that's based here, was painted with different shades of silver paint; in addition, the entire airplane was then clear-coated, with some areas using matte and some using glossy  uv-protective clear to duplicate the original differences in the metal skin. Very labor-intensive, but much more realistic than an overall monochromatic finish and protects against corrosion. Korean War Sabres are a real challenge, as there are so many variations in the skin panels and most of them are not shiny... in 1/72 it is a masking nightmare, but done right it sure looks like a million bucks! (783,500 pounds Sterling)

Mike

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Hello Mike @72modeler ... I Just made the comment i helped restore one. Never said it was correct as my o/post says. 

 

“Even the museum i worked with at the time painted it in Lt. Aircraft grey. Admittedly that was a restoration so again not trustworthy.”

 

Ive talked to people over the years that have told me the real aircraft were painted. That is why we painted the restoration, because we had an old vet that had worked on them advising us. But as i said i will digress to @Sabrejet‘s expertise here. Much the same as i would of canberra kid in all things canberra. 

    I wonder playing 👹advocate here if there is a  possibility of us both being correct ? Could it be that some units might’ve painted the F-86’s at unit level for maintenance reasons ? Things to ponder 🧐 about ? Again not saying im correct. Not saying the Museum or the others i have discussed this with including the vet were correct. Just saying thats what I've read and been told and have done on my sabre models. Will i keep doing that now that im armed with better knowledge ? No not likely unless i find more evidence. 

 

Dennis

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Could it be that some units might’ve painted the F-86’s at unit level for maintenance reasons ?

One thing I've learnt is to never say 'never', so anything's possible. However I'm mindful of the F-86L diagram that's in the Tech Order (will have to post it as soon as I can scan it), which shows ADC Gray for under-fuselage corrosion resistance but no mention of painting the wings. Since they'd perform similar functions on an NMF aircraft, I'd say that's good evidence (late in the life of USAF Sabres) to say it wasn't done on the wings until at least 1960.

 

I also wonder if somewhere the painting of airliner wings (which often do have pale gray-painted wing boxes and unpainted leading edges) may have clouded someone's recollections.

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Dennis,

 

No biggie, and bottom line, you can read all the T.O.'s and written bulletins you want, but nobody knows for sure what orders were followed- if there's one thing I have learned repeatedly in aviation history and modeling is that there's no such thing as an absolute. I'm sure there had to be airframes that were painted- maybe those that had to go through IRAN in Japan? I was just making an observation that photos of actual Korean War Sabres for the most part showed unpainted airframes, unlike a lot of the F-51D's that were overhauled/pulled out of storage and sent to Korea- you can see equal numbers of painted and unpainted Mustangs...maybe dependent on how  much of the outer layer of alclad that had been scrubbed/polished away over the years. The only USAF Sabres that I recall having any  major amount of paint applied were the F-86D/L's, and I think that was confined to the lower fuselage- I'm guessing here because of the corrosive gasses created when the rocket tray was deployed and the FFAR's were fired? Then there were some Sabres in USAFE that had a green/grey camouflage scheme applied, but I think that was experimental and short-lived; I bet @Sabrejet would know more about them, as my memory gets pretty fuzzy and goes u/s from time to time. Hey, I bet most restorations are probably silver paint, as it's a lot better protection from the elements/corrosion than that 60+ year-old alclad! Hey, you're still my #1! See the most famous and photographed 'painted' Sabre of them all!

Mike

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77141-north-american-f-86a-sabre/

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Hey mike im sure the T/O’s say that. Ive never doubted those, but ive seen a-lot of Planes judging by photo’s ive studied over the years that didnt seem to follow T/O’s ? Yes i was referring more towards later use in the late 1950’s - early 60’s not so much during the Korean war. Maybe thats why we have different thoughts on the matter ?  The Sabre we restored in 1995 was polished to within an inch of its life. Then it was painted up as Glenn’s “Mig Mad Marine.” We tried to get Glenn to come out to our museum and sign his name on the canopy. He was polite about it but refused to do so.

   The Vet that helped us in the restoration was in the Air Force from ‘44 till the later 60’s. He was originally a crew member on the P-47N “Lil meaties meat chopper.” We had a 1/3rd scale P-47n that had an Lycoming 4 cylinder in it. That was painted up in meaties markings to honor him. I sadly dont remember his name but thats who we used for our info. 

 

Dennis

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3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

I also wonder if somewhere the painting of airliner wings (which often do have pale gray-painted wing boxes and unpainted leading edges) may have clouded someone's recollections.

Thats very possible ? 

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49 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

, but ive seen a-lot of Planes judging by photo’s ive studied over the years that didnt seem to follow T/O’s ? 

 

Dennis

When we were re-painting our A-10 we realised the pictures of the Jet did not follow the TO in a few places. On one tail we realised they painted the TO for the inner tail on the outer tail !

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Sabrejet, sorry for the late reply, but thank you very much for the 40th FS F-86 photo. The other photo looks like the one that I first saw in a Japanese magazine so long ago. Thank you for posting both photos. I wonder if the 41st also painted their flying buzz saw insignia on their F-86Es. I know they did on their F-86Ds, 

 

Grant

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I sadly dont remember his name but thats who we used for our info. 

Dennis,

 

The name of the P-47N pilot was Oscar Perdomo; he also flew F-84G Thunderjets in Korea and his airplane had the same nickname,

Mike

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_F._Perdomo

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13 hours ago, Julien said:

When we were re-painting our A-10 we realised the pictures of the Jet did not follow the TO in a few places. On one tail we realised they painted the TO for the inner tail on the outer tail !

@Julien--^^Was that during the Euro 1 days? Best Erwin 

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@72modeler, @Corsairfoxfouruncle, @Sabrejet--Great discussion & thank you--I think it sounds like a good rule of thumb for a Korean War era jet would be a anodized metallic center box & the remainder acft aluminum--flaps, slats, wing tip, & fences where appropriate--obviously an individual machine might differ--do any of use alclad paint--if so what shades do use?  Really appreciated @72modeler floquil old silver/flat black discussion for a B-29's center section as a potential solution for an F-86--Best to all, Red Sox Fan

 

Edited by VT Red Sox Fan
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2 hours ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

@72modeler, @Corsairfoxfouruncle, @Sabrejet--Great discussion & thank you--I think it sounds like a good rule of thumb for a Korean War era jet would be a anodized metallic center box & the remainder acft aluminum--flaps, slats, wing tip, & fences where appropriate--obviously an individual machine might differ--do any of use alclad paint--if so what shades do use?  Really appreciated @72modeler floquil old silver/flat black discussion for a B-29's center section as a potential solution for an F-86--Best to all, Red Sox Fan

 

Also bear in mid that some Korean War F-86A-5 (that is, pre- F-86A-6/7 conversion) had a lot of fibreglass fairings too (intake ring, wing root trailing edge fairings, wingtips, fin leading edge fairing, fin tip etc) and these were painted a pale grey colour. As the paint wore off (especially at leading edges) the fibreglass colour showed through - often a reddish-brown colour.

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