Radar MTB 378

[Arjan]

Hi I'm new on this board and hope to get some input from Coastal Craft experts. I have been building MTB 378, a lend lease Vosper built by the Annapolis Yacht Yard in the US, in 1/35 scale. I also fitted rc components because I prefer working models.  Judging from period pics  MTB 378 was originally equipped with a standard British radar mast but was fitted out with an American SO radar mast at the end of the war.

 

According to some sources MTB 378 was equipped with radar type 291 U but it's not quite clear to me what the two antenna grids (I doubt if this is the correct term) looked like in detail and how they were attached to the mast. This image from "Allied Coastal Forces" depicts the 291 grids but they don't resemble the ones in pics of MTB 378 ??

 

 

This illustration from  "Coastal Craft History Volume 1" , however, does seem to resemble the radar grid of MTB 378 :

 

 

Not clear to me, however,  whether the  support bar (to which the three other bars were attached) was in line with the mast or attached to the side of the mast.

 

The mast of an MGB the top of which seems identical to the one fitted to MTB 378 :

 

 

 

My model with SO radar mast :

 

 

My model with standard radar mast :

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

 

 

 

[longshanks]

Hi Arjan

Good to see you over here . . .

I see your problem now.

 

The main 291 seemed to be 3 dipoles in front of the rotating mast section. MTB 378 per Allied torpedo boats and others show the rear dipole behind the mast. This seems quite random and not just US built boats. I found a pic of MTB 80  with the same layout.

 

In some pics the dipoles seem quite thick but I think it is an illusion.

This pic when enlarged clearly shows the thin dipoles. My thoughts are the thick piece is an insulator where the aerial pass the mast.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157519

 

Kev

[longshanks]

I meant to say your MTB378 is looking top class. Might be an idea to post a couple more pics to show the guys on here how high you've set the bar

 

Kev

[Arjan]

Thanks a lot Kevin for your reply and the kind words.  It would seem to me that the radar array with the rear dipole behind the mast appears more frequently in pics of relatively late Vospers (and perhaps earlier Vospers with refurbished radar gear). That still leaves me with the question of how the radar array was attached to the mast, in line with the mast or to the side of the mast. I made a primitive drawing of two (top view) options, "M" stands for mast :

 

 

Some pics of my build :

 

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

 

 

 

 

[longshanks]

I can see your dilemma . . . .

I would suggest from a engineering point of view the aerial would be bracketed to the side of the mast.

1. Lot easier to replace than feeding the elements through the mast

2. The rotating mast was quite slim, drilling a hole through is going to weaken the structure

 

Anyone else got any thoughts??

 

Love the pics. For those who may not have guessed Arjan has taken the Italeri 1/35 Vosper and modified a great deal to represent a Vosper built under licence in the USA.

To add to the insanity its going to be Radio Controlled

 

Kev

[JohnWS]

I agree Kev ... both on the antenna & Arjan's models. 

 

Here's a link to a photo;

 

http://www.rodericktimms.royalnavy.co.uk/media/images/user-images/5803/482b6radar.jpg

 

John

[Arjan]

Much obliged gentlemen, this has been very helpful. One more trivial question, the Italeri Vosper crew set has a crew member with an aldis lamp. I rather like this figure but I wonder if it wouldn't be a bit out of place on a Vosper ? After all, I take it that MTBs would usually communicate with sister ships by radio.

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

[longshanks]

Aldis lamp would very much used.

Radio silence would often be maintained on operations.

Enemy listening posts could triangulate on the signal to get a location.

 

Kev

[Arjan]

Thanks Kevin, I'm glad the figure can be used. Overall I think the  Italeri Vosper crew figures are quite useful, the only thing that really lets them down is their heads/faces which lack definition. That's why I have ordered some 1/35 resin heads to replace these.

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

[Courageous]

An impressive example of a 1/35 Vosper MTB, R/C too. I also concur about the mounting of the array, seems the most logical.

Let's see some more of your builds.

 

Stuart

[Arjan]

In the mean time I have constructed the radar mast (still has to be painted) :

 

 

Yesterday the resin heads I ordered arrived from China so I could start replacing the Italeri heads. The commander is ready for painting but the other crew members are still under construction. Looks like most commanders/officers in the IWM Leghorn pics wore white topped caps . In some pics both blue and white officer caps can be seen, not clear to me when the white ones were worn ?

 

The Italeri cap looks a bit big for the resin head but I can live with it :

 

 

Arjan

 

 

 

[longshanks]

Radar array looks right !

 

Good to see the figures taking shape. I'm no expert on uniform but I think the white topped cap was used with dress uniform the blue with working dress.

 

Having said that I think in the Med/coastal Forces anything was  OK.

 

Kev

 

[Al Gunthwaite]

Arjan, Kev

Blue cap winter - white cover summer. So in the Med I would always expect to see a white cover. 

And of course it's not straightforward because you see photos of a group of sailors wearing caps with and without white covers.  

Arjan, great work on the figures!

Al

[Arjan]

Hi gentlemen, thanks for your reply. I will give the officer a white cap cover. I think Kevin is correct regarding the dress code in the Mediterranean, especially after having left the port, no regulation head gear here :

 

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

[Al Gunthwaite]

2 hours ago, Arjan said:

Hi gentlemen, thanks for your reply. I will give the officer a white cap cover. I think Kevin is correct regarding the dress code in the Mediterranean, especially after having left the port, no regulation head gear here :

 

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

Is that Royal Navy? I appreciate that it's a Vosper in the Med but some standards should be maintained!!  😉

[Courageous]

33 minutes ago, Al Gunthwaite said:

Is that Royal Navy? I appreciate that it's a Vosper in the Med but some standards should be maintained!!  😉

That's boat crews for you, very relaxed demeanor, just like submariners but they got the job done.

 

Stuart

[Arjan]

It's one of the pics I like best, I especially like the Italian helmet placed over the roof vent. By the way, this week I read some parts of the "Secret Flotillas" book and I learned that MTBs in the Med were quite frequently used for putting ashore agents and sabotage teams. At some point even MAS boats manned by their Italian crews were enlisted for covert allied operations.  

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

[robgizlu]

Hi Arjan

Super work all round - you've done a magnificent job on the Radar.

Figures look super 

Just for interest - these heads may be worth checking out for the future - they pretty much set the standard

http://www.hornetandwolf.com/

 

Rob

[Arjan]

Hi Rob, I know the Hornet heads, in fact I have used quite a few of these in the past to convert 1/35 Dragon figures. This is one of my more successful conversions :

 

 

The detail of the Hornet heads is unsurpassed but I feel they are slightly too big for the Italeri Vosper figures. Also they are quite expensive especially since not all of the five heads in the sets are equally suitable.  In some cases I only used two or three out of the  five heads because the facial expression of some is really over the top. The heads from China are slightly smaller and of the two sets of five I bought I think only 1 head is less suitable in terms of facial expression (smiling face whereas my crew members should be deadly serious 😁). The detail of the Chinese heads is not as crisp as that of the Hornet ones but I'm convinced they will look alright once painted.

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

Edited December 8, 2018 by Arjan

[robgizlu]

Nice figure and particularly job on the Erbsenmuster

Rob

[Arjan]

Thanks Rob, I've started painting the commander figure today. It still needs some work and the pic isn't great (artificial light) but I think it'doesn't look too bad for an Italeri figure. Admittedly the commander figure is easily the best one of the entire Italeri set.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

 

 

[Arjan]

Some pics of my progress on the figures. I don't think I can improve much on them, after all they are Italeri figures and these are not exactly renowned for their quality. Besides, my figure painting skills are quite mediocre.

 

 

Arjan

Edited December 22, 2018 by Arjan

[longshanks]

Your figures are a worthy addition to your fine MTB

I always like to see figure(s) to give a sense of scale

 

Kev

[Al Gunthwaite]

Your figures are great - very neat!

Al

[Arjan]

Thanks a lot for the kind words gentlemen. It's about time for me to move on to a new project, my Vosper isn't quite finished yet but as usual I've reached the point  that I'm utterly fed up with it. This project has taken me far too long and I don't have the endless patience some of you seem to have. I've ordered another 1/35 Italeri late PT boat which I intend to build as a Ron 35 boat ETO (based in England). This is the first one I built many years ago (PTO) :

 

 

I think I'm going to build PT 513 simply because there are a number of useful pics of this particular vessel :

 

 

On the other hand, this is a nice pic of PT 515 (if I read the number correctly), the jeep on the foredeck appeals to me and I still have a Tamiya jeep in my stash. 

 

 

The ETO PT boats had a so-called "airfoil wind deflector" in front of the bridge. Not quite clear to me what the function of these things was, would a normal windshield not have been more useful ?

 

Regards,

 

Arjan

Edited December 22, 2018 by Arjan