Jump to content

As a result of the close-down of the UK by the British Government last night, we have made all the Buy/Sell areas read-only until we open back up again, so please have a look at the announcement linked here.

This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

Massimo Tessitori

question on Spanish SB

Recommended Posts

I am not aware of grey primers, ALG-1 was yellow, but aluminum is likely enough because such paint was used to protect the fabric against the effects of uv rays. 

Strangely, the tubular gunsight of early type 5 is not visible, or it was deleted on the photo. 

Edited by Massimo Tessitori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, 

there was a post of Righidan on Sovietwarplanes forum. 

Quote

To the best of my knowledge, the photo is a fake, an heavily retouched image of an heavily retouched image that you can find in Typy Broni i Uzbrojenia 048-Samolot myśliwski I-16 representing a Khalkin Gol plane.
 
   At least, the photo in the Polish profile has a red star in a plausible position, while the “Spanish” photo has a dark strip just over the red star.
   Moreover, we have photos of one of the very first I-16 used in Spain, and it is in a standard green – blue (or grey/silver) camouflage.
 
   So, unless we discover new documents, and I am sorry to say that I really doubt it, we will have to do without grey Spanish Rata!
   And as you rightly say, “I am not aware of grey primers”

So, unfortunately this image doesn't prove anything. 

I suppose that the original photo was of some aerobatic team, maybe it is possible to find the unaltered one.

Regards

Massimo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to J. Miranda, the first batch of 31 I-16 wich arrived to Spain in october, 1936, were overall light grey (some sources claim it to be aluminium paint, as already said), wich satin black cowlings. That was the common pattern for Moscow (1) and Gorki (21) workshops. Some contemporary Type 5 deployed in Manchuria had the same colour scheme. That first batch of 31 palnes was given fuselage numbers 1 to 31, having been properly identified 7, 9, CM-010, CM-011, 23 and 30 (no tall of them had the CM code added yet).

It's possible that the dark stripe in the tail wasn't red but black, aimed to conceal the original red stars. That pic was taken at Barajas, and according to some testimonies, they fought during the first battle of Madrid. It's possible that at that time, the gunsight and machine guns were still to be fitted.

The planes began to be overpainted in dark green/light blue from the 31st plane onwards, when the second batch of another 31 planes arrived in Cartagena in decembar, 1936.

If I had to believe anyone here, I'd rather believe in what some of the most respected spanish aeronautic historians such as Justo Miranda or Juán Arráez Cerdá have investigated, than in any other source. But that's just me, maybe I'm a little picky when it comes to talk about the Spanish Civil War. A lot of spurioous info and speculative unfounded rumours have been told.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Artie, 

the information from Miranda looks well detailed.

I've found a profile of n.7 as from the photo on a book on I-16 of Gordon and Dexter.  Of course, a profile isn't a proof, it means that they had the photo and considered it as genuine.

About the pattern of Zavod  and 21, I don't know. Some prototypes, trainers and aerobatic planes are indeed in silver, but practically no I-16 fighter operative with units was silver. If you find photos of these planes in Manchuria, or any other related information, I am interested to see them. 

Regards

Massimo

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is that I'm not very interested about I-16s outside Spain, so I've never cared about their colours.....I've seen mentioned those light grey or aluminium I-16s in Manchuria, and makes sense....At least, the I-15s and I-15bis wore an overall aluminium finish during some time.....Maybe AII "aluminium dope"???? Maybe AEh9 "light grey"??? What is almost considered to be truth, is the fact that the first batch of aircraft came in some kind of light grey overall, and as previously said, that light grey could be mixed up for matt aluminium. The planes were repainted from december 1936/january 1937. There's a two months gap, from october 1936 until december 1936, when they probably flew sporting that earlier "uncertain" finish.....The only pic showing one of those early Moscas, is that famous Black 7, and I couldn't be able top say for sure wich colour was that. And of course, no official records can confirm (or deny) any of the previous theories. Much have been written about that, and much can be still be written in the future, but unless any plausible information arises, we can keep discussing this for years with no conclusive answer at all...

The same controversy can be found regarding the first Bf109As wich were sent to Spain....

Regards...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

Righidan has sent a scan of a photo from a book, an I-16 n.9 with the usual green/blue livery and the caption:


 

Quote

 

Vladimir Bocharov's I-16 was captured near Madrid on 13 November 1936 when it was damaged during the type very first action over Spain. 


 

 

On the other hand, the photo of the Soviet I-16 n.7 in Khalkhin-gol  in 1939 shown on Tipy Broni is certainly a fake, because Soviet prewar planes had always the star on the fuselage and the number on the rudder, not vice versa as on that photo.

Anyway, if it was a fake from a photo of a Spanish one, it demonstates at least that the original image included all the nose of the plane. 

 

So, the thing remains in doubt. 

 

If (if!) the Spanish photo is real, the band was certainly red. No need of black bands to hide a star that was never painted on the tail. 

 

Regards

Massimo

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, 
we have uploaded two pages about SB in Spain:
about the Republican ones:

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/sb/tapani/spanish/spanishrepublican.htm

A pair of samples:
2-lpr.jpg

46-lpr.jpg

and about nationalist and postwar ones:

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/sb/tapani/spanish/spanishnationalist.htm

A pair of samples:

natNN-lpr.jpg

postwar20w5-lpr.jpg

Please, let me know if you see anything to improve in these pages. 

Regards

Massimo

Edited by Massimo Tessitori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...