Churchill markings

[bigfoot]

I'm trying to determine the unit/division markings for a specific Churchill tank unit. I'm going to do a diorama set in the battle of the reichswald. My grandfather passed away earlier this year and I always remember one of his stories about the battle of the reichswald and riding into the forest on the back of Churchill tanks. I want to recreate this in his memory but I'm trying to determine the likely markings for a tank he may have ridden on.

 

he served with the 6th battalion, royal welch fusiliers, 53rd Welsh division. From my research, this battalion was supported by C squadron, 9th RTR, 34th armoured brigade.

 

The 9th joined the 34th tank brigade in August '44 replacing the junior regiment. In Feb 45 the 34th tank brigade became the 34th armoured brigade and started using the standard army red 50-53 numbering instead of the green 9XX numbers, and started using the red shield emblem for the brigade. The regiments were also reordered into the correct seniority order. As the battle took place at the start of Feb '45, I will be using the red emblem and red arm of service marking. What I'm unsure about is what order the regiments were placed in when reorganised, therefore what '50' number to use and what colour squadron markings to use. I have Dennis olivers book on churchills that has given me a lot of info but it is contradictory as to the regiment order. It lists the regiments of 34 armoured brigade in Feb 45 with 9RTR as senior (51) but a colour plate later in the book shows a tank of 9RTR in spring 45 as having the number 52, therefore second senior regiment.

 

This is the only marking I'm unsure of, can anyone confirm what number 9RTR should be?

 

regiments of 34 armoured in Feb 45 were 9RTR,  107th RAC and 147RAC. I don't know anything about how to determine the order of seniority of British army regiments!

I'll be using the AFV club mkIII with 75mm gun for this project with mini art British tank riders.

 

thanks for any help!

 

[flyingdoctor]

Have you seen After the Battle Issue 159? It has some relevant pictures in it, albeit not very clear.

[JackG]

According to the publication of British Tanks in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin, 9th RTR replaced 153 RAC around 04/09/1944 in the 34th Tank brigade.  These both were the junior regiment, so tactical markings are blue.

 

Online I find similar info, but not sure if later the AoS number system was switched to the 50, 51, 52, 53 range?

 

https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=404

 

 

edit, found the specific date of the switch to red/white AoS as 2 Feb 45.   Still looking when seniority was switched up....

 

regards,

Jack

Edited November 16, 2018 by JackG

[bigfoot]

Thanks for the replies.

13 hours ago, flyingdoctor said:

Have you seen After the Battle Issue 159? It has some relevant pictures in it, albeit not very clear.

I’ve not seen that publication, has it got decent info in?

 

Jack - from my research, the reorganisation took place at the same time as the change from 34TB to 34AB, therefore I assume the change would have taken place on the 2 Feb as well.  I’ve done a lot of internet and book searching and can’t find another confirmation of Dennis Oliver’s info, so if you can find it you’re a better man than me! Lots of places link to the war diaries on 9RTR association website but they seem to have changed their website and removed everything that’s not merchandise, certainly no historical documents anymore so if anyone has a copy or knows where to find it, please share.

[JackG]

I think I found something in the form of web pages saved from a no longer working site.  I didn't check every link, but nothing concrete from those that I did.  For the Reichswald operation, I found it interesting that 9RTR was paired up with the 3rd brigade of 53rd Infantry Division - but that could just as easily be coincidence and not necessarily mean 9RTR was still junior at this time.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070226224441/http://www.royaltankregiment.com/9th_RTR/TT/CONTENTS.HTM

 

regards,

Jack

Edited November 17, 2018 by JackG

[bigfoot]

Thanks, I’ve seen that link before and got the hard copy of the book but unfortunately doesn’t really talk about the reorganisation of the brigade.

[bigfoot]

I think I’ve resolved this one. I found a picture in the tank tracks book (hard copy of Jack’s link above) that shows a wrecked ARV Churchill during the reichswald battle, captioned as being 9RTR that clearly shows 51 AOS badge and the red shield divisional badge so these are the markings I’m going with. Thanks for the help 

[JackG]

Glad you have it sorted out, and will keep an eye out for the completed photos.

 

I think I've read somewhere that when units had heavy casualties, or for whatever reason, had an influx of green troops, they could loose their  senior status position, which would then bump up the junior unit to the top.  That said, can't confirm if this was the case with 9RTR.

 

It could be something much simpler, in that the two  RRAC units came in to being during the first few years of WW2, while 9RTR was actually formed during World War I, and so was finally given recognition as the senior unit?

regards,

Jack

Edited November 20, 2018 by JackG

[bigfoot]

On 11/20/2018 at 3:04 PM, JackG said:

t could be something much simpler, in that the two  RRAC units came in to being during the first few years of WW2, while 9RTR was actually formed during World War I, and so was finally given recognition as the senior unit?

That was my thinking too but I couldn’t find anything on t’internet to confirm that theory.

[John Tapsell]

An RTR Battalion would take precedence over an RAC Battalion in the Order of Precedence. Therefore:

 

9 RTR would have been the Senior Battalion,

 

RAC Battalions were converted from Infantry battalions so they appear to have retained their seniority within the infantry order of precedence

107 RAC (5th Bn, King's Own Royal Regiment - KORR was ranked 4th of 'the line')

147 RAC (10th Bn the Hampshire Regt - Hampshire Regt was ranked 37th of 'the line')
 

If a new battalion joined a Brigade, it was re-organised to reflect the pecking order. The British Army, being enornously 'tribal', would not countenance a more senior battalion taking a position behind a lesser battalion.

 

Order of Precedence goes like this

 

Household Cavalry are most senior

Royal Horse Artillery

Cavalry Regts

RTR

Royal Armoured Corps

Royal Artillery

Foot Guards

Infantry of the Line

Supplementary Reserve

Militia

Territorial Army (inc Yeomanry, then RTR, then RAC)

 

There is a fairly comprehensive Order of Precedence listing in Malcolm Bellis' book 'Divisions of the British Army 1939-1945'
 

Regards,

John

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by John Tapsell

[Phil Evans]

Regimental seniority can be a complex subject. I was under the impression that the RHA were the most senior if they had their guns present but that's a distant and vague memory

 

Phil

[Niall]

Why use a Churchill mkIII? By 1945 most units would have had these upgraded to mkIII*(extra armour and a 75mm gun) or mkIX(with a mkVII turret in place of the mkIII) or replaced with a mkVII(never more than half in any 1 company).

[bigfoot]

Thanks for the extra info guys. I’d found some orders of preference on line (1945) but they didn’t mention the RTR in it.

 

niall - I am using the up armoured mkiii with 75mm.