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k5054nz

A Stuka will fly again: FHCAM finally reveals their project

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I truly am sorry for folks without Facebook access as I'm not sure how to share this otherwise, but FHCAM has put up a brief clip with Jason Muszala and the Stuka getting painted into North Africa theatre colours: https://www.facebook.com/flyingheritage/videos/vb.13883518665/321579225236267/?type=2&theater

 

And a photo from the FHCAM Twitter feed:
44381940390_6633450eba_c.jpgUntitled by Zac Yates, on Flickr

 

I was hoping for a European scheme but I'm not complaining: it's a flying Stuka!

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On 11/15/2018 at 5:57 PM, PLC1966 said:

I love Warbirds, but I am not sure that I am overly up for having one of the these, the symbol of Blitzkreig, diving in on an Airshow with the sirens going off.  

The Lancaster's and B-17/B-24/B-29's have a less than stellar historical reputation in former Axis countries. 

 

Aircraft restoration.  Remembering and honouring the former servicemen.  Acknowledging and atoning for war crimes.  Politics.  Model making.

 

The venn diagram of the above has lots of overlapping area.  I for one would be delighted to see the Stuka fly, and admire the engineering of the kit.  Hopefully the Germans feel the same about the BBMF Lancaster.

 

Not sure that Fifi the B-29 will be touring Japan anytime soon though. 

 

 

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Here's what the Stuka's Wikipedia page has to say about the diving attack procedure:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87

 

Quote

Diving procedure[edit]

Ju 87 diving procedure

Flying at 4,600 m (15,100 ft), the pilot located his target through a bombsight window in the cockpit floor. The pilot moved the dive lever to the rear, limiting the "throw" of the control column.[25] The dive brakes were activated automatically, the pilot set the trim tabs, reduced his throttle and closed the coolant flaps. The aircraft then rolled 180°, automatically nosing the aircraft into a dive. Red tabs protruded from the upper surfaces of the wing as a visual indicator to the pilot that, in case of a g-induced black-out, the automatic dive recovery system would be activated. The Stuka dived at a 60-90° angle, holding a constant speed of 500–600 km/h (350-370 mph) due to dive-brake deployment, which increased the accuracy of the Ju 87's aim.[25]

When the aircraft was reasonably close to the target, a light on the contact altimeter came on to indicate the bomb-release point, usually at a minimum height of 450 m (1,480 ft). The pilot released the bomb and initiated the automatic pull-out mechanism by depressing a knob on the control column.[25] An elongated U-shaped crutch located under the fuselage swung the bomb out of the way of the propeller, and the aircraft automatically began a 6gpullout.[25] Once the nose was above the horizon, dive brakes were retracted, the throttle was opened, and the propeller was set to climb. The pilot regained control and resumed normal flight. The coolant flaps had to be reopened quickly to prevent overheating. The automatic pull-out was not liked by all pilots. Helmut Mahlke later said that he and his unit disconnected the system because it allowed the enemy to predict the Ju 87's recovery pattern and height, making it easier for ground defences to hit an aircraft.[26]

Physical stress on the crew was severe. Human beings subjected to more than 5g in a seated position will suffer vision impairment in the form of a grey veil known to Stuka pilots as "seeing stars". They lose vision while remaining conscious; after five seconds, they black out. The Ju 87 pilots experienced the visual impairments most during "pull-up" from a dive.[27]

Eric "Winkle" Brown RN, a British test pilot and Commanding Officer of No. 1426 Flight RAF (the captured enemy aircraft Flight), tested the Ju 87 at RAE Farnborough. He said of the Stuka, "I had flown a lot of dive-bombers and it’s the only one that you can dive truly vertically. Sometimes with the dive-bombers...maximum dive is usually in the order of 60 degrees.. When flying the Stuka, because it’s all automatic, you are really flying vertically... The Stuka was in a class of its own."[28]

G-force test at Dessau[edit]

Extensive tests were carried out by the Junkers works at their Dessau plant. It was discovered that the highest load a pilot could endure was 8.5g for three seconds, when the aircraft was pushed to its limit by the centrifugal forces. At less than 4g, no visual problems or loss of consciousness were experienced.[29] Above 6g, 50% of pilots suffered visual problems, or "greyout". With 40%, vision vanished altogether from 7.5g upwards and black-out sometimes occurred.[30] Despite this blindness, the pilot could maintain consciousness and was capable of "bodily reactions". After more than three seconds, half the subjects passed out. The pilot would regain consciousness two or three seconds after the centrifugal forces had dropped below 3g and had lasted no longer than three seconds. In a crouched position, pilots could withstand 7.5g and were able to remain functional for a short duration. In this position, Junkers concluded that ⅔ of pilots could withstand 8g and perhaps 9g for three to five seconds without vision defects which, under war conditions, was acceptable.[31] During tests with the Ju 87 A-2, new technologies were tried out to reduce the effects of g. The pressurised cabin was of great importance during this research. Testing revealed that at high altitude, even 2g could cause death in an unpressurised cabin and without appropriate clothing. This new technology, along with special clothing and oxygen masks, was researched and tested. When the United States Army occupied the Junkers factory at Dessau on 21 April 1945, they were both impressed at and interested in the medical flight tests with the Ju 87.[31]

Obviously, this was well before the invention of G-suits and reclined seating, which allows pilots of modern combat aircraft to function under higher loads than 6g. Beyond the piolt's capabilities, the operation of the restored/rebuilt aircraft will depend on the design loads of the aircraft components. If it was designed for 6g loading, then ultimate loads (the point at which the structure actually fails) is probably at least 9g, if not higher. So it's not likely that a single dive would seriously tax the airframe. Where the aircraft might get into trouble is fatigue of the repeatedly stressed wing spars and skins. The lifespan of a typical wartime aircraft probably wasn't long enough to have to worry about fatigue of aircraft components cause by a large number of dive and pullout cycles. But an aircraft that does this repeatedly for display purposes could wind up out of fatigue life rather quickly. Hopefully a fully stress and fatigue analysis is being done to determine what the aircraft can be permitted to do to give an exciting display without compromising its structure for the long term.

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On 12/7/2018 at 7:21 PM, At Sea said:

The Lancaster's and B-17/B-24/B-29's have a less than stellar historical reputation in former Axis countries. 

 

Aircraft restoration.  Remembering and honouring the former servicemen.  Acknowledging and atoning for war crimes.  Politics.  Model making.

 

The venn diagram of the above has lots of overlapping area.  I for one would be delighted to see the Stuka fly, and admire the engineering of the kit.  Hopefully the Germans feel the same about the BBMF Lancaster.

 

Not sure that Fifi the B-29 will be touring Japan anytime soon though. 

 

 

My friend, I agree with all of the above, I really can't put my finger on where my thoughts have come from, very un-me like.  

 

I believe Fifi's Visa expired in 1945 😉

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This whole black-out thing is a red herring and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a Stuka could not be dived safely and levelled off safely peaking at no more than 3-4g.

 

The clue is in the text above. For bombing accuracy the aircraft releases its bomb at close to the lowest possible altitude requiring as tight and hard a pull-out as they thought they could get away with.

 

That is *entirely* different to diving steeply and beginning a gentler pull-out earlier. The aircraft is plenty strong enough and any display pilot worth his or her salt could do this.

 

The g force experienced is acceleration - i.e. changing direction. It is exactly the same as one feels cornering in a car only in a car it is felt laterally. For any given speed, the g force felt is directly proportional to the turn radius.

 

If you will dive at 370mph vertically downwards and only initiate recovery when you reach 1450ft AGL then the g loading necessary to avoid levelling off below the ground level will be high. However, if you dive at 370mph and initiate recovery at 3000ft AGL then the required turn radius is that much bigger abd thus the required acceleration is much less to level off at the same height above the ground.

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I don't suppose it would be beyond the wit of man - or woman - to install small electric motors to operate the sirens without diving at anything more than an acceptably shallow angle.  Yes, not original but not visible and far better than never hearing them because of rightful airshow safety and continued preservation concerns.

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On 12/10/2018 at 7:15 AM, Das Abteilung said:

I don't suppose it would be beyond the wit of man - or woman - to install small electric motors to operate the sirens without diving at anything more than an acceptably shallow angle.

I've read and heard a lot that there wasn't a way to turn off the sirens: they would have some form of lock in place which was removed/released as the dive began....and didn't stop until speed lowered on landing! Stories of Stukas sirening all the way home!

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This restored Stuka wouldn´t be such if it didn´t have the sirens wailling on the dive, besides, that was the trademark movement of this aircraft.

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Two things. The pilot did not initiate the pull out, the aircraft did.So assuming they have an automatic pull out device or can make a new one there should be no problem. My second point is, I feel, more likely to ensure that the Stuka will not be engaging in siren assisted dive bombing exhibitions.  I reckon the vociferous politically correct  liberal holier than thou activists will freak right out & that will be enough to ensure it doesn't happen. It may get a few shows in before it comes to the attention of aforesaid guardians of everything good but once it does & they get the scandal hungry media involved that'll be it.

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3 hours ago, spaddad said:

My second point is, I feel, more likely to ensure that the Stuka will not be engaging in siren assisted dive bombing exhibitions.  I reckon the vociferous politically correct  liberal holier than thou activists will freak right out & that will be enough to ensure it doesn't happen. It may get a few shows in before it comes to the attention of aforesaid guardians of everything good but once it does & they get the scandal hungry media involved that'll be it.

I think it's more likely they'd be worried it would slam into a line of cars outside an airshow, but of course nothing like that has ever happened. 

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Spaddad, automatic pull-out mechanism could have been overridden by a pilot or not engaged at all. I believe grey-out during eight or nine g pull-out is still preferable to ultimate black-out when smashing into the ground, as I./StG 76's 15th August 1939 incident shows. Cheers

Jure

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5 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Spaddad, automatic pull-out mechanism could have been overridden by a pilot or not engaged at all. I believe grey-out during eight or nine g pull-out is still preferable to ultimate black-out when smashing into the ground, as I./StG 76's 15th August 1939 incident shows. Cheers

Jure

Enlighten me Jure, what is this incident of which you speak, I don't have your all encompassing Stuka knowledge so your reference to it is not helpful without further explanation,

cheers,

spad

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12 hours ago, spaddad said:

My second point is, I feel, more likely to ensure that the Stuka will not be engaging in siren assisted dive bombing exhibitions.  I reckon the vociferous politically correct  liberal holier than thou activists will freak right out & that will be enough to ensure it doesn't happen. It may get a few shows in before it comes to the attention of aforesaid guardians of everything good but once it does & they get the scandal hungry media involved that'll be it.

It's a historical artefact.  That is how it worked.  Get over it!  You can't re-write history just because you don't like it.  No-one learns anything through denial.  It's no different from using pyros or blanks in re-enactments.  I'm not bothered about the absolutely correct diving angle per se and I'm not sure I see the need for it, but the siren noise is an essential and unique part of the aircraft,

 

I suspect they might have been linked in to the automatic diving system or were tuned to operate only above a certain airspeed not achievable in level flight.

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Guys - we need to get this topic back on track, or it'll go the way of the dinosaur.  We're discussing the restoration of a piece of historic militaria, and should leave the chatter about the rights and wrongs of using the sirens to those with an actual say in the matter.  Throwing epithets around about whichever mindset you don't like is highly emotive, and a distinctly unattractive things to see. :fraidnot:

 

Let's not sully the engineering feat of restoring a Stuka to airworthiness with sniping and stupid spats that quickly descend to YouTube comments level.  Surely, we're able to rise above that? :shrug:

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Spaddad,

I was not trying to be sardonic, so my apologies if I came across as such. The story has been repeated in several books and articles and I thought everybody knew about it. On that day Hauptman Sigel was leading I./StG 76, which performed dive-bombing demonstration through cloud layer for high ranking Luftwaffe officers. Depending on account, either height of the cloud base was reported incorrectly or ground fog suddenly appeared. Either way, instead of 1 km Stuka pilots only had about 100 meters or so to recover. Sigel pulled hard on the control column, blacked-out momentary and leveled well below tree tops. Again, depending on source he was either saved by fire-break clearing in the woods or he landed with leafs and branches, stuffed into wheel spats of his Ju 87. Behind him, the complete leading Staffel flew straight into the ground and several Stukas from the following Staffel were also lost. The whole mess costed the unit 13 planes and 26 airmen. The last Staffel, which was about to start when the carnage took place, had been circling above clouds until the fog disappeared, then performed dive bombing demonstration as planned. One of the pilots said he was eternally grateful to their Staffelkapitän, who made them follow it through, as otherwise his nerves would have gone completely. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Could someone, who is perhaps in closer (electronic) relations with good people of Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum, please ask them to measure their Ju 87 and publish this information? There is a thread on this question in WWII forum and after even original aircraft manuals failed to provide adequate answer we are about to resort to crystal ball, tee leafs and chicken entrails.

Edited by Jure Miljevic
P.S. added

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Its great to see there will be an airworthy Ju87. But who will be brave enough to demonstrate a dive , sirens  and all . Especially with a rare aircraft that tons of money will spent on it.

But only those over in the west coast of the USA will be fortunate to see it fly unless droves of UK enthusiasts  go over to see it.

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