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Tamiya 1/32 F-4J Decal options?


Troffa

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been working away for a bit, but have a couple of pics to share from the Phantom Phans on another site-

 

These fasteners are circled on panels to ensure that the operator installs the correct length of bolt, either long enough to pick up on a anchor, or short enough not to hit anything vital.  I  think my memory of fasteners marked for electrical bonding is a false one. Anyhoo, here are the pics. 

 

45510340054_7316aba9e8_b.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Troffa said:

These fasteners are circled on panels to ensure that the operator installs the correct length of bolt, either long enough to pick up on a anchor, or short enough not to hit anything vital.  I  think my memory of fasteners marked for electrical bonding is a false one. Anyhoo, here are the pics. 

Think those are different items, they're specifically on bolt holes w/ arrow markings and are donut shaped.

 

Here's a close-up of one of the white mystery circles that doesn't involve a bolt location.

dot.jpg

 

Can see that same one on the earlier 334 pic that Anntti posted:

386ebd1a-f6f6-49a7-9d67-296725aae858.JPG

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I see what you mean- are the circles in your shots just to align the panel if removed? i.e. If the circle isn't formed rotate the panel 180 degrees?

 

Someone must know! 

 

Great pics.

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10 minutes ago, Troffa said:

I see what you mean- are the circles in your shots just to align the panel if removed? i.e. If the circle isn't formed rotate the panel 180 degrees?

Doesn't look like an alignment marking, that closeup of the recue door's shape can only go one direction (left side is different shape than right)

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Never worked on airplanes, but since they all seem to be placed right on the edge of two panel, could they be stress indicators? Like when a lot of G's were pulled during flight, you could easily tell where the stress occured when two halves of the circles don't match up anymore. Canadian Hornets had them too, btw.

 

yCKOGfc.jpg

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Now that's very interesting- are these circle markings a McDonnell thing?  Or a Carrier borne aircraft thing? Heavy Landings ?  

(not that the Canadians have carriers any more, but it would be interesting to see if these dots turn up on US and other F/A-18)

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Hello all,

 

this is indeed interesting. It makes sense what Creepy Pete suggests. Especially on all-metal aircraft. 

 

Hornet however is an aircraft built of composite materials all the way so any stress markings have very little value. And yet they look the same as in Phantoms... I haven't seen those white dots on Finnish Hornets and a colleague just confirmed that they were never painted on our Hornet fleet.

 

Troffa: those prints you posted represent either FG.1 and/or FGR.2 based on the "fact" that rear auxiliary intakes are visible, right?

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hi Antii, I'm not certain of the applicability, but this marking scheme  was applied to FGR-2  XT899  (The Blue one), it may also have been valid for FG-1 and other variants.   I've got a picture somewhere, but I'm maxed out with family stuff at the moment. I'll try and post later. 

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Been pondering on this for a while; given the 'showroom' finish of some of those Phantoms, particularly the VMFA-334 one, I believe the mystery circles might be factory applied Quality Assurance stickers similar to the 'warranty void if removed' types you sometimes see on some consumer goods. I've seen similar versions on newly delivered airliners where they're applied across a panel joint after the internal systems have been inspected, the panel is secured, the inspector seals the area with the sticker then stamps and initials it. When the panel is opened it will tear the sticker in half. Although some of them could last a long while (I've seen some still on A320 aircraft undergoing a 4C Check at 8 years!) for a military jet, especially a Navy one, I doubt they last very long considering the combination of supersonic speeds, environment/corrosion control and regular removal of certain panels. A post cruise repaint would also see them disappear since there'd be no reason to reapply them. Perhaps @Tailspin Turtle could confirm whether McDonnell did apply them? 

 

Probably the only F-4 left which may still have any left more or less intact would be FG.1 XT596 in the FAA Museum at Yeovilton. You can see them in this photo: https://www.airliners.net/photo/UK-Navy/McDonnell-F-4K-Phantom-FG1/1584511/L . Annoyingly I've been up close to the exhibit a couple of times but never had a camera on me. It's a shame that the model show is no more, it'd have been an ideal opportunity to have a proper look and take some close-up photos. Anyone going there in the near future that could have a look?

 

It just goes to show that you can have a subject about which literally milliions of words have been written and still come across stuff you've never noticed before!

 

Jonathan

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The dots look like they were tamped.  And wouldn't last past the first respray - which means not very long.

 

The darker gear door interiors (and legs) are most likely zinc chromate yellow or green. It's visible in contemporaneous colour photos, esp. VF-111 F-4Bs. Slapped all around the wheel wells too.

 

Tony 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, tony.t said:

The darker gear door interiors (and legs) are most likely zinc chromate yellow or green. It's visible in contemporaneous colour photos, esp. VF-111 F-4Bs. Slapped all around the wheel wells too.

In the VF-143 color photo I posted on the first page the nose gear/door looks red to me, was there a red option?

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On 12/9/2018 at 5:29 AM, Troffa said:

Now that's very interesting- are these circle markings a McDonnell thing?  Or a Carrier borne aircraft thing? Heavy Landings ?  

(not that the Canadians have carriers any more, but it would be interesting to see if these dots turn up on US and other F/A-18)

At McDonnell and elsewhere, these stickers were applied by QA  (and usually marked with his or her stamp) after a compartment had been inspected for FOD, missing or unconnected components, obvious damage, etc. and then closed up. Subsequent removal of the panel tore the sticker (as noted, it was applied across the gap) and required a QA inspection of the compartment and OK to close.

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Well it's all got a bit thread creep-tastic, but another thoroughly enjoyable Phantom thread for BM and future readers- Thanks to all!

 

I'm going to be at a certain South West aviation museum in the very near future, its only 10 miles away, after all. 🙂 

 

Cheers,

 

Troffa 

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3 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

At McDonnell and elsewhere, these stickers were applied by QA  (and usually marked with his or her stamp) after a compartment had been inspected for FOD, missing or unconnected components, obvious damage, etc. and then closed up. Subsequent removal of the panel tore the sticker (as noted, it was applied across the gap) and required a QA inspection of the compartment and OK to close.

Thank You Tommy🙂

 

The information you gave also explains why those "dots" can be at slightly different locations.

 

I have a further question for you: Do you know which F-4J production block was radar equipped from the factory on? I came into conclusion that it was "af"; radar equipped but without ECM equipment (later half of "ag" had also the ECM gear). There is a photo of BuNo 153878 taken in 1967 or early 1968 which shows RIO leaning forward just like he is working with the radar set. Another photo shows BuNo 153858 in "VF-101 Key West 1968-1970 paint scheme" and still without ECM antennae; radar equipped perhaps? VF-101 used this Phantom for Air-to-Air training.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

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1 hour ago, Antti_K said:

Thank You Tommy🙂

 

The information you gave also explains why those "dots" can be at slightly different locations.

 

I have a further question for you: Do you know which F-4J production block was radar equipped from the factory on? I came into conclusion that it was "af"; radar equipped but without ECM equipment (later half of "ag" had also the ECM gear). There is a photo of BuNo 153878 taken in 1967 or early 1968 which shows RIO leaning forward just like he is working with the radar set. Another photo shows BuNo 153858 in "VF-101 Key West 1968-1970 paint scheme" and still without ECM antennae; radar equipped perhaps? VF-101 used this Phantom for Air-to-Air training.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

All I know is which ones did not have any air-to-air radar. See my post on the Blue Angels "Js": https://thanlont.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-short-tragic-operation-of-f-4.html

 

In summary: There were 18 ("lead-nosed Js) built, five in production block 26 and 13 in production block 27, BuNos 153071-153088.

 

ECM effectivity is too hard for me to try to keep track of. I depend on others for that, e.g. https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/search/label/EW

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Thank you again Tommy,

 

I'm familiar with your excellent website and I've found many detailed answers to my "Phantom Problems" from there🙂

 

This radar question bothers me because "Lead Nose" Phantoms are mentioned for example in Richard O'Connor's book "Phantom Phury" (Rick was one of the original pilots with VMFA-334 Falcons joining the squadron in the summer of 1967). Rick mentions that in the summer of 1968 the squadron still had "some lead nose Phantoms without radar".

 

In May 1968 VMFA-232 (Red Devils) received for example BuNo 153792 #2 (block ac) from VMFA-334 and VMFA-212 got BuNo 153832 #1 from "Falcons" as well. The history pages of VMFA-212 states that 153832 was a "Lead Nose" Phantom on arrival and was later modified to "fully equipped status" at NAS North Island. I guess it is possible that people just call those early F-4Js "Lead Nose Phantoms" when in fact the aircraft only lacked ECM equipment.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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5 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Thank you again Tommy,

 

I'm familiar with your excellent website and I've found many detailed answers to my "Phantom Problems" from there🙂

 

This radar question bothers me because "Lead Nose" Phantoms are mentioned for example in Richard O'Connor's book "Phantom Phury" (Rick was one of the original pilots with VMFA-334 Falcons joining the squadron in the summer of 1967). Rick mentions that in the summer of 1968 the squadron still had "some lead nose Phantoms without radar".

 

In May 1968 VMFA-232 (Red Devils) received for example BuNo 153792 #2 (block ac) from VMFA-334 and VMFA-212 got BuNo 153832 #1 from "Falcons" as well. The history pages of VMFA-212 states that 153832 was a "Lead Nose" Phantom on arrival and was later modified to "fully equipped status" at NAS North Island. I guess it is possible that people just call those early F-4Js "Lead Nose Phantoms" when in fact the aircraft only lacked ECM equipment.

 

Cheers,

Antti

It may be that “lead-nosed” came to mean pre-ECM equipment. In any event, I’m pretty sure that none of those first 18 ever got a radar or the J engine. Certainly those BuNos don’t coincide with them. McDonnell was on schedule with airframe production with the radar and engine provided as Government Furnished Equipment, which was behind schedule, hence the ballast in the nose (the Blues used it as a baggage compartment) and B engine. The Blues didn’t get all of the first 18; a few were sent to the RAG and it’s possible that VMF -334 might have gotten some of them as a placeholder in 1967/8. I’ll ask my F-4 subject-matter expert if he has the aircraft history cards for them.

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I had seen similar statements too regarding at least VMFA-212, their history mentions: "The Lancers received four lead-nosed Phantoms from VMFA-334 at El Toro in May 1968. Radar-equipped Phantoms were fully implemented by November 1969."

Their aircraft at that timeframe all appeared to be in the low 1538xx (ad) block.

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Thanks to Jonathan (XV571) for reminding me that I live 10 miles away from XT596, one of the two YF-4K Prototypes.

 

The old bird has several of the QA Inspection Circles remaining - here are a few photographs from this morning.

 

32522382208_33787bbd4f_c.jpg

 

32522381388_0aa445689d_c.jpg 

 

32522381738_2222ded2d8_c.jpg

 

44577477790_577199c58f_c.jpg

 

44577478110_31e2978e0b_c.jpg

 

45481923085_8556a28944_c.jpg

 

I have enjoyed a good look round this Historic airframe, but look forward to the day when she can be placed in an environment more conducive to viewing- Hopefully before too long a Pre-Production or Mock up F-35B can take her place. The lighting in the Carrier exhibition is woeful for the casual photographer such as me. 

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Thank you very much for the photos Troffa🙂 I too hope that the museum will find a new spot for the Phantom with better light. And I also hope to visit the museum.

 

I was looking at these photos and thinking how tight the panel fit is. The best way to represent them and the screws would be by using decals. It would be a tremendous job to draw and print them but I think a completed model would look stunning. There are very good drawings in the "Plane Captain's Handbook" showing many panels but not all. Oh pipe dreams🙂

 

Are those white discs more like paper stickers or thin "decals"? At least they have coped with the elements extremely well.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Just now, Troffa said:

Hi Antti, I think they are paint.  

Hi Troffa,

 

that's what I was thinking also. It would have been a very special sticker to handle the moist sea air, salty sprays and Mach 2 speeds. I give an example: here in Finland some ground crew guys had an idea to name a MiG-21 after a well known test pilot. They used basic plastic sticker material which tore away almost completely during a single Mach 2 mission (which lasted some 20 minutes).

 

Cheers,

Antti

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