Tamiya 1/32 F-4J Decal options?

[Troffa]

I am in a quandary over which decal option to use on what is the 1st and probably the only 1/32 F-4J I will ever build, and seek guidance from the BM Hive Mind.

 

If I had some VF-111, VF-84, or even VF-143 decals, this would not be a thread, but I have none of those luminary squadron markings at my disposal.

 

I have VF151 from Midway, which is in pole position,  Showtime 100  which I feel is a little hackneyed, and the blue-radomed bicentennial monstrosity from VMFA451. I also have some spares with VMFA333 (A bit too Celtic FC for me).

 

I am tempted to use the VMFA 232 "Red Devils" markings, but I'm concerned that the white "WT" tail code may struggle against a Red Tail- has anyone any experience of this option? Are the Tamiya decals likely to be opaque enough, or do I need to stick with the VF151 option, which is a pity, as I do like a white rudder on a Phantom. 

 

"Help me Oh Bee Emm, you're my only hope!"

 

Cheers,

 

Troffa

[At Sea]

What's wrong with 74 Squadron?  🙂

 

Honestly, given the 'once in a lifetime' nature of this kit and the availability of AM decals I would build the airframe you want for an extra £25.

 

You'll kick yourself if you don't. 

 

Personally I like the simplicity of the VF-103 scheme that Cam decals do.  AC on Big Sara, but almost all the squadron of the 'color' era are covered by someone.

[Troffa]

74 Sqn ?  Don't get me started on those Johnny-come-lately dilettantes!  

 

On the other unit markings, You make a good point, if not one fitting my fiscal planning at the moment. 

 

Off to search the usual spots.

 

Thanks,

 

troffa

[iainpeden]

I think VF-111 didn't use the J - only B and N. VF-74 or VF-114 would look good.

[Antti_K]

Hello!

 

Some books say that VF-111 used a handful of F-4J:s for a short while. As I was looking for a "striking" paint scheme for my big F-4J as well, I was very enthusiastic about "Sundowners'" colours. However I wasn't able to find a single photo of a VF-111 F-4J.

 

Troffa, have you considered either of the two decal sets from AoA -decals? They provide excellent sheets for BuNo 155887 (#102) of VF-143 and BuNo 155565 of VMFA-334. I have them both and they are among the very best aftermarket decals I've seen (correct size and shape, sharp, opaque, work beautifully with Micro's chemicals and the research is done well).

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Troffa]

Thanks for the replies- I confess to purchasing the AoA  Pukin' Dogs set- but now that means that I have to think about replacing or modifying the undersized Jet Nozzles- Or paying 30 quid for some aftermarket.   Down the Rabbit hole went Alice! 

 

I'm off to trade in a (well) used kidney 🙂 

[Antti_K]

Hello Troffa!

 

Can you get a pair of Revell jet nozzles from your (or someone elses) spares box as they are perfect for the job. Then of course some re-shaping is required on the rear fuselage as well...

 

Here is my Phantom project after the area around jet nozzles was re-shaped and detailed

 

 

And here are the jet nozzles. From left to right they are: original Tamiya part, Revell part and resin aftermarket part (same dimensions as the Tamiya part has).

 

My solution was to sand down the resin part's outer surface until I could slide it in the Revell's jet nozzle and attach with CA.

 

The finished jet nozzles in place for a dry fit. Plastic strip and Milliput was needed especially on the lower surface to blend in the jet nozzles.

 

At this point I used close up photos of a F-4J(UK); hence the small reinforcement plates on the fin. I removed them later. A lot of work was needed in this area.

 

I had painted the model (VF-143 1969-1970 cruise livery) using Humbrol enamels when disaster stroke: something went horribly wrong with the Humbrol clear cote. It turned into a thick mass which in turn destroyed all the surface details. It took six months to remove the paint and re-scribe all panel lines, bolts and rivets. The AN/ALQ-51 antenna blister at the trailing edge of the fin was beyond my help and had to be removed (together with all scratch built ECM antennas).

 

Today my Phantom is completely re-painted (VF-101 1968 livery) and is waiting for clear cote and decals.

 

I hope that your project turns up in a less dramatic way🙂

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Troffa]

Wow! Nice work Antti!, Thanks for sharing your build- Is that on BM ? Never mind, I'll do a quick search in a minute.  And I'll post a request in the wants for a set of revell long exhausts. 

 

Thanks again for your help and advice, it's much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

troffa

 

 

[Antti_K]

You are welcome troffa🙂

 

I started my Tamiya F-4J Phantom WIP here on BM some two years ago. The tittle is "I fear no man" as my original plan was to build a 74 squadron aircraft. Lack of decals and especially lack of proper stencils turned my attention toward USN (and USMC) birds.

 

It became clear that in order to show the others a specific point of interest you have to build beyond that step. But my intention is to update the story in the near future concentrating on detailing, painting and finishing. There isn't a single part in the kit that I haven't altered.

 

Now I'm ready to print some decals as I made all the panel numbers and stencils. Luckily the required font is a standard one available in every computer.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Troffa]

Well I've just received the AOA "Taproom 102" decal set- WOW!

 

Decals for VF-143 F-4J Bu No. 155887 on three different cruises, printed by Cartograf. 

 

Very impressive on the sheet. Can't wait to get these on the kit.

 

 

[Antti_K]

I told you🙂...

 

Have you decided yet which scheme you are going to finish your model? I chose the 1969-70 scheme for my Phantom. The very first (and short lived) one is missing from the set. It is essentially the same as the 69-70 but with very dark blue (Insignia Blue?) fin cap and wing tips. Also the Air Wing letters "NK" were slightly differently positioned and side number was "302".

 

So far I have found only three photos of #102 from 69-70 cruise, one from 71-72 cruise and one from the last cruise (possibly with Plane Capatin Tom Chergi posing in front of the aircraft). One interesting detail: during the 71-72 cruise #102 carried a small red ejection seat triangle with white border under the pilot's canopy and a large white one with red border under the RIO's canopy. The photo showing this was shot from the starboard side.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Troffa]

I'm going to do the Blue one Antti, the 1972-73 Cruise on Enterprise, but rest assured, my Phantom is going to nowhere near as accurate as yours!

 

My philosophy being-If I can produce a model that I am happy with in terms of finish and build quality, whilst bearing a passing resemblance to the prototype I'm happy- I'm 50 and have enough kits in the stash to open a decent model shop, so I need to get these things built before my eyes go, my hands fail or I have that unscheduled medical emergency. 🙂 

 

I'm really looking forward to getting on with this one now, and look forward to seeing more progress on your Magnum Opus! 

 

Kind regards,

 

Troffa

[ziggyfoos]

Excellent to see some VF-143 in the works.

 

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:45 PM, Antti_K said:

The very first (and short lived) one is missing from the set. It is essentially the same as the 69-70 but with very dark blue (Insignia Blue?) fin cap and wing tips. Also the Air Wing letters "NK" were slightly differently positioned and side number was "302".

 

One interesting detail: during the 71-72 cruise #102 carried a small red ejection seat triangle with white border under the pilot's canopy and a large white one with red border under the RIO's canopy. The photo showing this was shot from the starboard side.

I believe that "missing" early blue scheme you're referring to was during their initial F-4J transition and work up period. It was same overall scheme used on their B's at that time and with the 3xx modex series. The sheet was focused on the three combat cruises and started with their primary 69-70 scheme of red and 1xx modex though, and sheet space was tight as it was so no blue 302.

 

Ya that ejection seat triangle.... had that photo as a reference but forgot to mention in the final sheet that the right side had two different triangles. Left side shows matching set though as shown.

 

[Troffa]

4 hours ago, ziggyfoos said:

Excellent to see some VF-143 in the works

Well you did supply the Decals!  Small world 🙂 

 

 

[Antti_K]

Hello ziggyfoos and troffa,

 

These are the photos I was referring to. I forgot to mention that some VF-143 footage (69-70 cruise aboard USS Constellation) is available in here:

 

I agree ziggyfoos about the "dark blue" scheme. I got the impression that it was used during the summer of 1969 only when "Connie" was on exercise outside San Diego. All photos of from that WESTPAC cruise show red tail cap.

 

Any plans for a stencil set for F-4J complete with panel numbers in 1/32 or 1/48?

 

Cheers,

Antti

[ziggyfoos]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 3:34 PM, Antti_K said:

These are the photos I was referring to. I forgot to mention that some VF-143 footage (69-70 cruise aboard USS Constellation) is available in here:

 

Any plans for a stencil set for F-4J complete with panel numbers in 1/32 or 1/48?

 

Thanks for the video, I'm not seen that before.

 

I hadn't planned on doing the full data/stencil markings with the panel numbers since others have already covered the original style in both scales (Furball in 1/48 and Zotz in 1/32). I know Cam also does a 1/32 stencil sheet but w/o panel numbers.

But I have thought of doing the other common style in 1/32 that was pretty common (open stencil/sprayed on style, likes shown below). But it's a lot of work and not sure if I'll get around to it.

 

 

On the plus side, VF-143's 102 didn't have either style of being plastered with the airframe markings, it only had pretty minimal markings, including only small panel number identifiers (this type would not be worth a full decal release).

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by ziggyfoos

[Antti_K]

Hello ziggyfoos and all!

 

I think that you would do an excellent job with the stencils (if there was a set by AoA along the others I would buy AoA's, no contest). I made my own set using the NAVAIR document as a guide and Power Point. Luckily the font is a standard "Courier"...

 

The last photo (of #102) you posted shows the aircraft aboard USS Enterprise, because the yellow "Rescue opposite side" is of later style. I have a rather good photo of #102 from 69-70 cruise and an excellent one of BuNo 155889 from the first cruise. Both aircraft carried full stenciling and panel numbers.

 

I have been wondering what those small white "dots" are? During the late 1960s all Navy Phantoms had them all over the fuselage and some on the wings. Even the British FG.1s and FGR.2s originally had them. Not as many as on American planes but they were there. Do you know why they were painted? I used high quality photos as reference and painted some 30 white circles on the port side of the fuselage and some 20+ on the starboard side. Occasionally they are located on a bolt head but the next to it may lie on the middle of a panel.

 

Did you note an interesting detail in Mr Dallas' film: The "Danger - Jet Intake" marking has squared, stenciled letters. I think that the aircraft is BuNo 155850 #100 because it carries commander Paul H Speer's name on the canopy frame. Speer flew with Lt (JG) J. Carter but unfortunately the clip doesn't show neither RIO's canopy nor aircraft side number.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[ziggyfoos]

15 hours ago, Antti_K said:

The last photo (of #102) you posted shows the aircraft aboard USS Enterprise, because the yellow "Rescue opposite side" is of later style.

It is, 72-73 specifically. I was getting at that not every F-4 needs the full panel/stencil sheet (I forgot you were doing earlier Connie period).

 

I’m not sure what you mean by white dots, can you post pic?

 

[Antti_K]

Hello ziggyfoos and all,

 

Here are a couple close-ups of BuNo 153801 (#3, VMFA-334) taken sometime between June 1967 and May 1968.

 

 

As you can see there are small white "dots" or circles all over the fuselage.

 

 

The rear fuselage of the same air frame. There is even one "dot" on the unpainted metal panel (just below the block identification "ad"). There is another on the brake chute door but this area is painted with heat resistant aluminium enamel; it's not natural metal. Take also a close look at the small triangular area just visible above the stabilizer. It is also painted with aluminium paint. Actually the area beneath the stabilizer is painted but barely visible when stabilizer is it's neutral position. The paint also got darker rather quickly and is therefore hard to see. A detail missing from most models.

 

 

Here is #102 aboard Connie. Note again the white dots: one on the anti-glare area, one just behind the radome trim and one above the AoA sensor.

 

 

This photo was taken aboard Connie during her 69-70 WestPac. The colour of the landing gear door bothers me. At the front lower corner the colour clearly looks to be something else than Insignia White -red perhaps- but closer to the wing under surface it could be white. The small area in the middle of the door on the other hand is clearly white. Very stark contrast to the door's inner surface in general.  Unfortunately I have no clue about the BuNo... Propably not #102 as the wing drop tank is now missing. Can you help me with this?

 

Cheers,

Antti

Antti

[ziggyfoos]

Ohh those dot things, I'm not sure what they are.

 

52 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

This photo was taken aboard Connie during her 69-70 WestPac. The colour of the landing gear door bothers me. At the front lower corner the colour clearly looks to be something else than Insignia White -red perhaps- but closer to the wing under surface it could be white. The small area in the middle of the door on the other hand is clearly white. Very stark contrast to the door's inner surface in general.  Unfortunately I have no clue about the BuNo... Propably not #102 as the wing drop tank is now missing. Can you help me with this?

That main landing gear door also matches what I've seen on the nose gear too that seems unusual - but apparently common on that cruise for 143 (but not 142). Photos from that cruise show dark nose gear and door interior too that appears all red. Here's one of 104 showing this in color on Wikimedia but I've seen the same offhand for at least 100 and 102 as well:

Edited November 22, 2018 by ziggyfoos

[Antti_K]

I have this photo also. Unfortunately the main gear and doors are not visible.

 

One black & white photo of #100 in Connie's 69-70 cruise book hints that the nose gear was still white when the photo was taken. A white nose gear is visible at beginning of that Youtube clip. Some re-painting has also been done along Door 6R edges. The colour used could have been yellow as the "RESSCUE" rectangular looks very dark on the photo as well. There is also some dark "stripes" on the center line tank. A shame really that none of the VF-143 photos are sharp...

 

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

I'm also looking at the pilot's canopy. Clearly there is more than "CDR P H SPEER" painted on the frame; a plane captains name perhaps? The CAG before Speer had a "personal" mount in VF-142 colours.

[Troffa]

I'm going to throw this out there, in the hope of jogging someone else's memory-   As a youth, I worked on RAF FG-1 Phantoms, during their 3 grey camouflage period, and some fasteners in some panels were circled with a Royal Blue paint stencil, and, if my fading memory serves me, these fasteners were related to the static/ electrical bonding of the fuselage- the modern day equivalent to the W/T Stencil on a Spitfire or Hurricane.  I think the White Circles are the same fasteners on the older camouflage schemes.   They denoted fasteners that required special treatment when installing or removing. I may be able to confirm this soon. 

[Antti_K]

Thank You Troffa! That makes sense... As I mentioned earlier those white circles are visible at least on FG.1 and FGR.2 prototypes. Some are still visible in the Yeovilton example (XT596?). This is the first time I hear about those blue markings on gray camouflaged Phantoms.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Troffa]

Don't take my word for it! It was 30 years ago and not my trade, but I'm sure that's what I remember they were!  I have asked on another forum for confirmation by wiser heads. 

[Antti_K]

Don't worry. Let's just wait and see what we will find out🙂 One thing is for sure: those circles are not mentioned in NAVAIR 01-245FDB-2-2.1 (painting and finishing of exterior surfaces).