Flagon A to E ever possible?

[Uncle Uncool]

Hi there, mates.

I fancy building a Su-15TM Flagon E - the "Boeing Killer" but, unfortunately, I can't have access to the TM boxing of the 1/48 Trumpy kit - I could always get one on evilBay, but it's only that I don't wish to have to wait 4+ months to get the kit in my hands (yeh, that's how much time it takes for a modeller to receive what he purchased abroad - the blokes at Customs seem to be all riding on handicapped snails!). 

I do have the option of getting the Trumpy 1/48 Su-15 Flagon A kit from a local vendor, and I happened to have bought the Quickboost resin radome correction bit for the TM some time ago. So question is whether or not it's possible to convert the Flagon A kit into an E variant using the former kit version as a basis.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

 

Unc²

[VMA131Marine]

I'm not even sure it's possible to convert the Trumpeter Flagon A kit into a Flagon A, let alone make a different variant. 

 

Yes, the Trumpeter kit really is that bad! There is very little that is Su-15 shaped on the whole kit. I have a partially built TM version and one of the big problems is the cross-section of the fuselage is all wrong so that it is impossible to attach the horizontal tail without a comical amount of anhedral. The wings have a similar problem. 

 

I also have a vacform 1/48 Su-15 by HitKit. It's fairly crude, but the shapes look a lot better.

[Uncle Uncool]

34 minutes ago, VMA131Marine said:

I have a partially built TM version and one of the big problems is the cross-section of the fuselage is all wrong so that it is impossible to attach the horizontal tail without a comical amount of anhedral. The wings have a similar problem. 

Hi, VMA131

Thanks for your answer. Thought that there was a wee bit of anhedral on both the ailerons and wings on the Flagon? Or is it way too much on the Trumpy kit?

 

 

Also, and if only you could, mind you showing me the different cross-sections on the Trumpy and HitKit examples, please? 

Cheers,

 

Unc²

[KRK4m]

3 hours ago, Uncle Uncool said:

So question is whether or not it's possible to convert the Flagon A kit into an E variant using the former kit version as a basis.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Of course it could be (a little) easier to built a Flagon E model using the Flagon A kit than - for example - bashing the Finback with Fitter and Fencer kits.

But the nose isn't the sole difference, as the TM wings are some 10% larger and even the nose gear has twin wheels (single in Flagon A).

Cheers

Michael

[Jon Bryon]

The Trumpy Flagon-A is more like an A than their F is like an F, if you follow me. 

 

My list of problems with the F is here: https://jonbryon.com/su15tm-html/

 

The list of problems for the A should be shorter...

 

The Flagon-E was a Su-15T, not TM. The 'Boeing Killer' is now considered to have been a Flagon-A, not an F.

 

Jon

Edited November 2, 2018 by Jon Bryon

[tony.t]

Osipovich' Sokol-based Flagon was (according to the excellent Begemot decal sheet) a balalaika winged, conical radome Flagon A. 

The kit benefits from a replacement Pavla or Aires replacement resin radome, a NorthStar rear end and "no mask" (.i.e easy to paint separate hubs and tyres) wheels plus the Master you-can't-believe-it-till-you-see-it metal and resin nautical-looking nose pitot. 

 

The wing anhedral does need care (by filing the wing root for a shallower angle) and the fuselage engine trunking cross section rounded more (from the wing root point aft) by scraping, sanding and rescribing panel lines. Voilà. 

 

As no one else makes a proper 1/48 kit of the Flagon (though it was rumoured AMK might in a parallel universe) persevere with the Trumpeters. For me, the absolute ultimate kit would be an accurate 1/32 IM Flagon - yes, even from Trumpeter as I'd know exactly what to fix.

 

Enjoy your A

 

Tony 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by tony.t
Ingleesh

[VMA131Marine]

5 hours ago, Uncle Uncool said:

Thought that there was a wee bit of anhedral on both the ailerons and wings on the Flagon? Or is it way too much on the Trumpy kit?

Your picture really exaggerates the degree of anhedral. The wings have a degree at most, the tail a bit more. The Trumpeter wings and tail end up looking more like a Harrier if you don't modify them - maybe it's not quite that bad.

 

 

[tony.t]

According to page 59 of the very thorough Yefim Gordon & Dmitriy Komissarov Su-15 Flagon book the wing anhedral is

TWO degrees.

 

HTH

 

Tony

[Sonoran]

I’m not sure I believe Begemot on this one.  That area was considered by the Soviets to be especially sensitive, and all of the other Su-15 units in the Far East Military District had been flying Su-15TMs for many years by 1983, including the most remote base of them all at Anadyr.  The idea that the base where Ossopovich was based would have been equipped with an outdated version is hard to believe.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Sonoran

[tony.t]

Begemot changed the instructions between the first and the second, expanded, editions of the Flagon sheet. The first showed it as an Su-15TM (NATO name Flagon F) and the revised one as a sans suffix Su-15 (NATO Flagon A). 

 

I suspect that Osipovich' jet was most likely fitted or refitted with the Taifun Mod radar, which raises the possibility of an early -15TM with the extended wings but conical radome (what NATO referred to as the Flagon E. The Flagon F and trainer G had the ogival radome). 

 

It's complicated by the fact that the Soviets' nomenclature had nothing to do with the artificial NATO versions. Of the single seat operational types, there was just the ca.1967-1970 manufacture Cy-15 (conical radome, both types of wing), very small ca.1970 production Cy-15T (conical radome, extended wing), and ca.1971-1976 Cy-15TM (both types of radomes although mostly ogival, twin nose wheels, extended wing). Confuzin, innit?

 

Tony

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by tony.t
ingleesh again

[Uncle Uncool]

19 hours ago, KRK4m said:

But the nose isn't the sole difference, as the TM wings are some 10% larger and even the nose gear has twin wheels (single in Flagon A).

Hi Michael

Even if it were possible to add a 10% to the wing length to the A kit, I guess the twin-wheel config on the nose gear botches it all - or perhaps there is a white metal/brass option out there for the nose strut and resin wheels?

Thanks for your reply!

Cheers

 

18 hours ago, Jon Bryon said:

My list of problems with the F is here: https://jonbryon.com/su15tm-html/

The Flagon-E was a Su-15T, not TM. The 'Boeing Killer' is now considered to have been a Flagon-A, not an F.

Hi Jon!

Awesome build! Thanks for the list. Yeh, I'm afraid it's the Flagon F the aircraft that I fancy building. I read about Osipovich on the web, and I thought his mount was an E.

So, no Flagon A for me. Thank you.

Cheers

 

15 hours ago, tony.t said:

Osipovich' Sokol-based Flagon was (according to the excellent Begemot decal sheet) a balalaika winged, conical radome Flagon A. 

The kit benefits from a replacement Pavla or Aires replacement resin radome, a NorthStar rear end and "no mask" (.i.e easy to paint separate hubs and tyres) wheels plus the Master you-can't-believe-it-till-you-see-it metal and resin nautical-looking nose pitot. 

 

The wing anhedral does need care (by filing the wing root for a shallower angle) and the fuselage engine trunking cross section rounded more (from the wing root point aft) by scraping, sanding and rescribing panel lines. Voilà. 

 

Enjoy your A

Hi Tony

Thanks for the input. Well, it's actually the Flagon F I'm interested in. I really don't dig the conical radome on the Flagon A.

So, is the rear end the same on both the A and F variants? Might want to have a look at the North Star rear end resin bit.

Cheers

 

15 hours ago, VMA131Marine said:

Your picture really exaggerates the degree of anhedral. The wings have a degree at most, the tail a bit more. The Trumpeter wings and tail end up looking more like a Harrier if you don't modify them - maybe it's not quite that bad.

 

Hi again, VMA131

Okay, I got it now; thanks. Incidentally; nice piccy!

Cheers

 

14 hours ago, tony.t said:

According to page 59 of the very thorough Yefim Gordon & Dmitriy Komissarov Su-15 Flagon book the wing anhedral is

TWO degrees.

HTH

Hi again, Tony

So, is the anhedral 2° both on the wings AND horizontal stabilizers?

Yeh, it does help; thanks a lot. Thanks

Cheers

 

13 hours ago, Sonoran said:

I’m not sure I believe Begemot on this one.  That area was considered by the Soviets to be especially sensitive, and all of the other Su-15 units in the Far East Military District had been flying Su-15TMs for many years by 1983, including the most remote base of them all at Anadyr.  The idea that the base where Ossopovich was based would have been equipped with an outdated version is hard to believe.

Hi Sonoran

This is what I had understood as well. Thanks.

Cheers

 

Thank you very much, gents, for your imput; highly appreciated. It's the Flagon F now what I'm interested in.

Cheers,

 

Unc²

Edited November 3, 2018 by Uncle Uncool
The second's the charm?

[VMA131Marine]

Here's a build review of the HitKit 1/48 vacform kit; the result is stunning:

 

http://www.hyperscale.com/features/2001/su15tmpb_1.htm

[tony.t]

The Northstar pen nib and nozzles is a subjective decision. I would say yes if you're building an Su-15TM/Flagon F. 

At the moment they are out of stock...

https://northstarmodels.com/product/su-15-exhaust-nozzles/

 

They also do resin wheels, in two sets. Whole wheels, and a more expensive set with separate hubs and tyres. I bought two sets of these too, for my stashed -15TM and -15UM. Have the Aires (i think) ogival radomes for them also - it helps restore the proper length. 

 

Master pitot will save a lot of swearing and feet stomping...

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/MR48121 

 

Yes, 2° anhedral on both mainplanes and tailplanes. 

 

We really need a good kit of this aircraft family. C'mon AMK, Bobcat or - my favourite contender in 1/48 - ICM. 

 

Tony 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by tony.t
to activate link, as usual

[Sonoran]

There is literally no part of the Trumpeter Flagon kits in either scale that is Flagon shaped.  

 

There is at least one new 1/48 Su-15 kit under development that I know of.

[tony.t]

11 minutes ago, Sonoran said:

There is literally no part of the Trumpeter Flagon kits in either scale that is Flagon shaped.  

 

There is at least one new 1/48 Su-15 kit under development that I know of.

 

That sounds suspiciously like a Jennings Heilig mantra. 

The kits have issues, yes, but they're the only game in town - bit like the 1/32 Trumpeter E E Lightning, which does not share an awful lot with the Lightning but looks remarkably like one when built. 

 

Glad to hear something's in the pipeline. I reckon ICM are the best bet for actually delivering something highly desirable and accurate, and likely have access to at least a TM airframe.

 

Tony 

 

 

[VMA131Marine]

34 minutes ago, tony.t said:

That sounds suspiciously like a Jennings Heilig mantra. 

The kits have issues, yes, but they're the only game in town - bit like the 1/32 Trumpeter E E Lightning,

The Trumpeter Su-15s are really bad. The 1/72 kits are better than the 1/48 versions, but the AModel kit is supposed to be accurate and there are major discrepancies between it and the Trumpeter versions. In some ways, the PM kit is better in terms of basic shapes.

 

For the Lightning, there is the Echelon vac kit. They still show up from time to time. That's one of my Holy Grail kits to acquire.

[tony.t]

I've built the 1/72 Trumpeters and A-Model kit, and 1/48 Flagon A.

Somebody at Trumpeter, while the designer was on a pot noodle lunch break, stretched the design along its longitudinal axis. Or they thought it looked cooler and sleeker that way.

 

So, yes, on the TM you can see the wings are swept back a tad too much, the fuse is slightly too long, and that the intake trunking is way too boxy, but the latter two can be fixed; there is a plethora of AM, and very, very frankly, sweet fanny adams by way of competition!

 

I have the Tigger 1/32 vacforms too, and I can tell you that the Trumpeters are a walk along a beach by comparison. 

 

Why this icon of the PVO has been so badly neglected baffles me, but then we had some really turdy Foxbats before kitty hawk (sort of) and ICM (properly) stepped up to the mark. I remain optimistic!  

 

Tony 

 

[Aardvark]

About Osipovich Su-15 modification:

 

"Not only Osipovich alone, but other veterans of the 777th regiment unequivocally assert that the TMs were never in service with the regiment !!! There were simple Su-15s: with a delta wing (8th series) in 2 ae and with an “influx” (11th series) in 1 ae (mistakenly accepted by journalists as TM). They were transferred to the Mikoyan equipment - the Mig-23 and the Mig-31. Look on the forum avia.ru twig about Falcon ..."

"Here you have one more reason for the “transformation” of the Su-15 to the Su-15TM !!! In the series, the UPK-23-250 did indeed go with the Modif TM, but in the ranks all the Su-15s available at that time were refined for the installation of 2 gun containers. At least in relation to the aircraft 777 IAP is true"

 

Resource:

http://forums.airforce.ru/foto-video/1523-podkin-te-foto-su-15tm-pilota-osipovicha-bortovoi-nomer-17-a/

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

About "Su-15 - Boeing killer"

 

Some conspirology.

 

On Russian site

lurkmore.to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurkmore

 - analogue site 

Encyclopædia Dramatica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Dramatica

in article about Korea Boeing incident:

http://lurkmore.to/Корейский_Боинг

there is a version that the Boeing was only damaged by missile from the Su-15 Osipovich and after lowering to a height of 5,000 meters the Boeing crew restored the aircraft’s controllability.

As evidenced by the decoding of the  pilots Boeing talk. But Boeing crashed!

 

On version in

article lurkmore.to

Boeing crashed

because 

he was killed with a MiG-23 missile.

 

Whether such a version of events took place in reality or not, we are unlikely to ever know, but this brings a certain percentage of doubts in the version that Osipovich Su-15 was a Boeing killer.

 

P.P.S.

Good Su-15 in 1/72, 1/48 e.t.c - need! I almost agree!

 

 

 

 

[tony.t]

Thanks for clarifying things Serge.

So the Osipovich Flagon was a Batch 8 delta wing, conical radome Su-15 which had been upgraded with the twin gun pods but not the Taifun Mod radar. 

 

Presumably Batch 11 Su-15s differed only in having the extended wings, and some of these were in another squadron at Sokol.

 

Hoping we get lucky with a new 1/48 Su-15 series before long. I'd build every version, including the two seaters. 

 

Many thanks again,

 

Tony