First MiG kill in Vietnam War

[Brian J]

I'm hoping for clarification concerning several aspects of early F-4 Phantom MiG kills during the Vietnam War, specifically who is credited with the first 'official' MiG kill.  Without listing all of my references I will quote just one or two that add to my quandary.

 

On page 11 of US Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers, 1965-70 by Brad Elward and Peter Davies (Osprey Combat Aircraft-26) concerning the combat off Hainan Island on April 9, 1965, the authors state that, "The Hainan Island incident had provided both the first MiG kill of the war (although this was not officially acknowledged in order to avoid upsetting the Chinese)..."  By the way, this F-4B, BuNo 151403 had the call sign 'Showtime 602' not 611 as found in several references, during this engagement.

 

A few months later, on June 17, Cdr Lou Page, and Lt John C Smith flying 'Sundown 101' were credited with shooting down a MiG-17.  On page 27 the above reference states, "The first two F-4 kills of the war were a proud moment for the Navy..."  A photo caption on page 30 of Michael O'Conner's MiG Killers of Yankee Station, describing 'Sundown 101' as, "F-4B BuNo 150646, the first MiG killer."

 

With the passing of over forty years since the end of the Vietnam War has there been an official clarification as to who is given credit for the first Navy MiG kill of that war?  I want to do a couple of build-ups of F-4Bs of the first and last Phantom II MiG kills of the war and would like to get things as accurate as possible.

 

On a final note,  some references e.g. Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club by Rene J Francillon, state that 'Sundown 101' had  BuNo 151488, not 150646.  Colour profile 3 on page 35 of the Elward and Davies book shows it as being 151488.  On page 91 of that book the profile caption states, "Sent to NAS Atsugi, Japan, on 17 March 1965, BuNo 151488 was take (?) on strength by VMFA-542.  Its aircraft history card indicates that the fighter stayed with this unit until 14 October, although published reports state that it was used by VF-21 to down the Navy's first VPAF MiG of the war on 17 June."   Furball Aero-Design decals provide markings for 'Sundown 101' as BuNo 150406. 

 

The above comments and references help explain problems that modelers have in reproducing accurate build-ups!  Comments and clarification on the above would be greatly appreciated.    

Edited November 1, 2018 by Brian J

[Murph]

And then there's Capt Don Kilgus' F-100D gun kill of a MiG-17 on 4 April 1965.  That was not awarded for political reasons.

 

Regards,

Murph

[whiskey]

Kilgus' MiG kill has been 'unofficially' deemed the first MiG downing of the Vietnam War, as Murph stated above, for political reasons. Another excuse for it not being made official was the USAF's command rationale that he didn't have enough evidence that he shot it down. 

Quote

The first official American aerial victory of the Vietnam War was scored on Apr. 9, 1965 by Lt. (j.g.) Terrence M. Murphy and his Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) Ens. Ronald J. Fegan from Fighter Squadron 96 (VF-96), who downed a Chinese MiG-17 while flying from the USS Ranger (CVA-61) in F-4B Phantom II BuNo 151403, callsign ‘Showtime 602.’  The story behind Murphy and Fegan’s victory is quite interesting because several details of their engagement are still classified today.

https://www.keytlaw.com/f-4/mig-kill/

Quote

09-Apr-65 Terence Murphy        F-4B    USN     AIM-7        MiG-17 PR China            Ronald Fegan    

 

Last MiG kill

Quote

12-Jan-73 Victor Kovaleski      F-4B    USN     AIM-9        MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel            James Wise                    USN

http://myplace.frontier.com/~anneled/usvictor.html

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/how-a-u-s-navy-f-4-phantom-ii-crew-scored-the-197th-and-last-mig-kill-of-the-vietnam-war/

[Antoine]

13 hours ago, Brian J said:

On page 11 of US Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers, 1965-70 by Brad Elward and Peter Davies (Osprey Combat Aircraft-26) concerning the combat off Hainan Island on April 9, 1965, the authors state that, "The Hainan Island incident had provided both the first MiG kill of the war (although this was not officially acknowledged in order to avoid upsetting the Chinese)..."  By the way, this F-4B, BuNo 151403 had the call sign 'Showtime 602' not 611 as found in several references, during this engagement.

 

To my knowledge, O'Connor's book provide the best account of the engagement, and in my opinion, he's right when he write that Showtime 611 never get any kill on the J-5s (The Chinese would have been too happy with that), and that it's been shot down by its own wingmen. No wonder that the USN doesn't see the need to dig further into this affair, and thinks its better to leave it in the fog.

 

Beside, BuNo 151403 is indeed Showtime 611, just have a look at page 8 of your own reference book.

602 was flown by H. Watkins.

 

Kilgus should get credit for the first MiG kill, as there's no way the MiG-17 could have recovered given his  attitude and altitude when last seen by the F-100 pilot. And the Vietnamese acknowledge no less than four losses this day... for no official US claim!

[RAGATIGER]

15 hours ago, Murph said:

And then there's Capt Don Kilgus' F-100D gun kill of a MiG-17 on 4 April 1965.  That was not awarded for political reasons.

 

Regards,

Murph

I wonder to ask if there decals of that F-100D in any scale???

 

Cheers

Armando

[J.C. Bahr]

27 minutes ago, RAGATIGER said:

I wonder to ask if there decals of that F-100D in any scale???

Wolfpak did in 1/72 (72-051), but sold out now:

 

http://millcreekconsultants.com/WP72-9.html

 

Does not even seem to be available from Fantasy Print Shop either.

[whiskey]

14 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

I wonder to ask if there decals of that F-100D in any scale???

 

Cheers

Armando

 

http://www.caracalmodels.com/cd48128.html

[Brian J]

Many thanks to the gentlemen who took the time to respond to my questions.  I'd like to to clarify a couple of points that may not have been made too clear on my part.

 

First off, I am aware of the claim made by Capt Don Kilgus, flying an USAF F-100D Super Sabre.  However, my initial question was, "...has there been an official clarification as to who is given credit for the first Navy MiG kill of that war?"  My interest is in the first U.S. Navy claim and if it was ever made 'official.'  I guess the question is, who or what organization makes a claim 'official'?  The claim made by Cdr Lou Page was made and accepted by 'the powers that be' as 'official.'  The Murphy/Fegan kill (they obviously never made a claim) nor the Kilgus kill have ever been made official to the best of my knowledge. That was the whole point of my question...who is given 'official' credit for the first F-4 Phantom kill?  At this point I am leaning towards doing my 'first kill' build-up in Cdr Page's markings, unless someone can provide a more convincing argument.

 

One final point.  Several years ago I spent several days/weeks trying to dig up the correct/accurate call sign of F-4B BuNo 151403 at the time it was lost on April 9, 1965.  The following quote is from an e-mail I sent to a fellow modeler who joined in on the exchange on another web-site:

 

"Since my last e-mail it dawned on me to check back issues of The Hook quarterly and spent several hours going through over 25 years of back issues.  The Summer and Fall 1990 issues include a two part history of VF-96 by Mike Weeks.  In the second part he gives a detailed description of the 9 April 1965 encounter in which BuNo 151403 was lost.  This article mentions three times that the call sign was 'Showtime 602.'  The photo caption on page 34 in the Fall issue states that, "On that day LTJG Terry Murphy and RIO ENS  Ron Fegan in Showtime 602 (seen here as 611) failed to return to Ranger after high altitude battle..."

 

What I found encouraging was that in his acknowledgements on page 47 he lists at least ten or twelve former members of VF-96 who provided assistance, which leads me to believe the guys who were there should know!"

 

The above e-mail was seen by other modelers and never questioned.  At this point in time I stand by my conclusion that at the time of the loss of BuNo 151403 it was Showtime 602. 

 

Is there a Navy board or US military board that meets to go over claims made by pilots in the Vietnam War?  Have they or it produced an official score card?  I know, I know, get a life...it's not that important!

 

Thanks again for all the comments.   

Edited November 3, 2018 by Brian J

[Antoine]

On 3 novembre 2018 at 5:52 AM, Brian J said:

First off, I am aware of the claim made by Capt Don Kilgus, flying an USAF F-100D Super Sabre.  However, my initial question was, "...has there been an official clarification as to who is given credit for the first Navy MiG kill of that war?"

 

Well, tell me if I'm wrong, but the topic's title is "First MiG kill in Vietnam War"

And then, just under, you write about "several aspects of early F-4 MiG kills".

A bit misleading, isn't it?

 

On 1 novembre 2018 at 5:12 PM, Brian J said:

I'm hoping for clarification concerning several aspects of early F-4 Phantom MiG kills during the Vietnam War, specifically who is credited with the first 'official' MiG kill.  Without listing all of my references I will quote just one or two that add to my quandary.

 

 

Then,

On 3 novembre 2018 at 5:52 AM, Brian J said:

One final point.  Several years ago I spent several days/weeks trying to dig up the correct/accurate call sign of F-4B BuNo 151403 at the time it was lost on April 9, 1965.  The following quote is from an e-mail I sent to a fellow modeler who joined in on the exchange on another web-site:

 

"Since my last e-mail it dawned on me to check back issues of The Hook quarterly and spent several hours going through over 25 years of back issues.  The Summer and Fall 1990 issues include a two part history of VF-96 by Mike Weeks.  In the second part he gives a detailed description of the 9 April 1965 encounter in which BuNo 151403 was lost.  This article mentions three times that the call sign was 'Showtime 602.'  The photo caption on page 34 in the Fall issue states that, "On that day LTJG Terry Murphy and RIO ENS  Ron Fegan in Showtime 602 (seen here as 611) failed to return to Ranger after high altitude battle..."

 

What I found encouraging was that in his acknowledgements on page 47 he lists at least ten or twelve former members of VF-96 who provided assistance, which leads me to believe the guys who were there should know!"

 

The above e-mail was seen by other modelers and never questioned.  At this point in time I stand by my conclusion that at the time of the loss of BuNo 151403 it was Showtime 602.

 

Well, BuNo 151403 being Showtime 611 in january 1965 is a fact.

Shift of Modex could and did happen during a cruise, in general due to losses, but AFAIK, there were none for VF-96 before the Hainan engagement. 

And then, what would have been the Modex of Watkins/Mueller's phantom, who were flying 602?

Edited November 4, 2018 by Antoine

[Brian J]

Greetings, Antoine.  Your latest comments have moved me to again try and clarify my question.  I apologize if my topic heading was misleading but I tried to make my question quite specific in later comments as to credit being given to the first officially recognized MiG kill.  As I suggested, over the years it has never been made clear, at least to me, who is recognized for that honour.

 

You are correct, with photo verification found on page 8 of the Elward & Davies book, that BuNo 151403 had Showtime 611 nose markings in January 1965.  In the text the authors state that, "Despite repeated radio calls, 'Showtime 602' could not be raised, and Murphy and Fegan were posted missing in action."  The book later provides a colour profile on page 34 of BuNo 151403 with the Modex 602.  I e-mailed the web-site of VF-96 last night hoping for comments from them.  I'll post any findings if they respond to my questions. 

 

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your last comment , "And then, what would have been the Modex of Watkins/Mueller's phanatom, who were flying 102?"  According to the above mentioned text, "VF-96's reports show that 'showtime 603' (Fraser) and '610' (Don Watkins) were on station at 40,000 and 35,000 ft respectively."

 

Again, I apologize if this whole matter is getting off course.  Hopefully members will jump in and add to the fray! 

 

  

[bzn20]

Isn't the 1st Mig kill covered in the Dogfight TV series ? I don't have the box sets but I'm  sure it was mentioned in one of them . I binge watched them and they all melded in to one long dogfight and don't remember the Jet but US Navy or USMC would be my favourite , somebody might have the boxset notes .

[Antoine]

4 hours ago, Brian J said:

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your last comment , "And then, what would have been the Modex of Watkins/Mueller's phanatom, who were flying 102?"  According to the above mentioned text, "VF-96's reports show that 'showtime 603' (Fraser) and '610' (Don Watkins) were on station at 40,000 and 35,000 ft respectively."

Sorry, l wanted to write 602, not 102.

I'm not talking about Don Watkins, but about Howie Watkins, who with Mueller was manning the spare F-4.

They launched after Greer's crash.

[XV571]

I have a similar project on-going for the first and last USN & USAF F-4 kills. As part of the research I obtained copies of the IPMS USA 2011 Booklet and decal sheet which has both VF-96 and VF-21 F-4Bs. In the accompanying artic;le it states the following:

 

"...Flying north, they overtook for Chinese Shenyang J-5s ... flying from China's Hainan Island. Realising they were being overtaken, the Chinese pilots broke  formation and in the next 15-20 minutes the Phantoms and MiGs were cutting across the sky, breaking inside of each other and the Americans were firing their Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles. The Chinese never fired because they never received permission from their controllers. Soon, an American pilot spotted what he thought was a MiG-17 falling from the sky. Nearly 30 years later one of the Chinese pilots - all of whom returned to their base safely - reported he had seen a F-4 hit by a missile fired by another Phantom and crashing into the sea. Murphy and  Fegan were never seen again by anyone although they were later credited with the Navy's first air-to-air kil of the Vietnam War. The Navy's first uncontested shoot-down took place on June 17 1965 when Commander Louis Page and Lt J C Smith, in an F-4B from the USS Midway, downed a MiG-17 with a Sparrow..."

 

As for the BuNo for Sundown 101, a later Osprey book 'US Navy F-4 Phantom II Units of the Vietnam War 1964-68' also by Peter E. Davies and published in 2016 states that 150646 was flown by Cdr Page & Lt Smith on 17 June 1965. A further point is that the Phantom in the USS Midway Museum in San Diego is painted as both 150646 and 150345 (Rock River 102) to signify the first and last USN MiG kills. So, it would appear that further evidence has appeared to confirm the actual jet flown since the orignal Osprey Combat Aircraft 26 book was published in 2001 and the US Navy have sussequently c;lassified Page & Smith's MiG-17 as the first official USN victory. I also remember a thread on another forum about the time Furball annouced their sheet where this may have been discussed as well; if I ever find it I'll post a link.

 

So far I've only managed to complete F-4D 65-0796, the last USAF victory. I held off doing the first USN F-4 for the same reason as you but mainly based on the above I think I will do Sundown 101 as the first actual USN MiG kill.

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

[Antoine]

Whatever, Murphy/Fegan's "kill" has been credited to them at air wing level straight out of the debrief, and then at 7th Fleet, but political considerations then took over at higher level, and it was never made official.

Therefore, BuNo 150646 is the first official USN MiG killer of the Vietnam war.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Antoine

[Brian J]

After re-reading my references (for the umteenth time) and considering the comments made here I agree with Antoine's latest post.  I feel confident that finishing my F-4B model in BuNo 150646 markings is the way to go.  I am now going to shut my eyes, plug my ears and repeat 'la-la-la-la-la' until my next project.  

 

Again, many thanks to the members who took the time to express their opinions!

[Brian J]

I'm finally preparing plastic to build-up the two F-4Bs in question.  I want to share some details that I have garnered concerning both early and later F-4Bs as well as a couple of other F-4 versions. 

The aircraft in question are:

a) Cdr Lou Page's F-4B from VF-21 (17 June 1965)

b) Lt Victor Kovaleski's F-4B from VF-161 (12 January 1973)

 

Please correct me if I am in error concerning the following:

-early (pre-F-4Js) lacked slotted stabilators (so Page's F-4 lacked them, Kovaleski's had them)

-later F-4s had DECM antenna bulges on lower fuselage behind intakes and rear wing roots (so Page's F-4 lacked them, Kovaleski's had them...as did F-4Js)

-later F-4s had upper mid-wing reinforcing plates (rectangular bumps) to strengthen landing gear (so Page's F-4 lacked them, Kovaleski's had them...as did F-4Js.  Air Force F-4E/F/Gs lacked these plates/bumps.

 

From what I understand, it may be that not ALL later F-4Bs but all F-4Ns had these conversions.  But I have come to feel Kovaleski's F-4 would have from the photos I have studied.  

 

I would enjoy hearing from members who can add or correct any of the above observations/conclusions...hopefully before I finish my build-ups!