what color on Bulgarian planes of ww2?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, 

this question arose from the discussion on B-71s:

Bulgarian planes of ww2 , on photos, show a tri-color rudder (Bulgarian colors white, red, green) or another medium/dark color.

Many bw photos can be seen here: 

https://archive.org/details/AirPowerOfTheKingdomOfBulgariaPartIv/page/n14

The color could be interpreted as yellow, darkened by an orthochromatic film, but is it possible that all Bulgarian planes are photographed with the same films? Bw photos of German and Finnish planes don't generally show yellow band with a so dark shade of grey.

Besides, a boxart of Bulgarian Bf-109E of Hasegawa shows the rudder and other stripes as orange. This looks more compatible with known photos. 

Well, this is not the color of a single plane or unit where one could guess: it is the distinctive color of a whole air force.

So, I hope that someone could answer for sure: what was the distinctive color of the rudders of so many Bulgarian planes?

Regards

Massimo

 

[JackG]

The photos in the link are not necessarily all examples of ortho film.  There could also be some examples ofdark photos, such as lighting/development, as well as quality has degraded from original.   Here is an isolated find of the Emil numbered 4, and is much brighter then the example found in your link:

 

I don't see any reason to think the solid coloured rudder is anything other than yellow.   Many of the Axis countries used that colour for friendly identification.  Some time in 1942 it became less prominent, being reserved to the lower surfaces to avoid friendly ground fire.  Not too difficult to quickly find examples where the yellow markings appear dark on axis aircraft:

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

[occa]

The yellow Bulgaria used was a deep red-orange yellow, that's why it appears relatively dark on B/W photos

[Sturmovik]

Carmel J. Attard makes Bulgarian WW2 planes, and writes the build articles on Modeling Madness, you should send him an email with your questions. If I remember correctly, all of his Bulgarian planes are in RLM 71/65/04.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

Quote

There could also be some examples ofdark photos, such as lighting/development, as well as quality has degraded from original.   Here is an isolated find of the Emil numbered 4, and is much brighter then the example found in your link:

There is an example of a photo where the tail of a German Me-109 has the same color of the rudder of a Bulgarian Do-17. This seems a point for Do-17s having yellow rudder. But other types seem regularly darker. 

 

I see a lot of profiles of Bulgarian planes with green-red rudders, that is the colors of the Bulgarian flag minus white. I have to say that those colors are forthemost undistinguishable on bw photo even when coupled to white. Anyway, the fact that practically no photo shows a  division line between 'green' and 'red' when there is not white is suspicious. 

Quote

The yellow Bulgaria used was a deep red-orange yellow, that's why it appears relatively dark on B/W photos

as German Gelb 04, or more reddish? 

 

Quote

Carmel J. Attard makes Bulgarian WW2 planes, and writes the build articles on Modeling Madness, you should send him an email with your questions. If I remember correctly, all of his Bulgarian planes are in RLM 71/65/04.

Interesting, I'll try to contact him. But I think that such a thing could be known by sure by Bulgarian researchers.

 

Regards

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, 

I'm close to upload the page on Bulgarian B.71.

About the history of alliances it is more or less so:

in 1939 Bulgaria received the B.71 and was allied with Germany. He employed them against a rebellion in Greece.

In June 1941, Bulgaria was allied with Germany but didn't declared war to SSSR, also because these countries hadn't borders in common.  So, the use of yellow on rudders is debatable.

In September 1944, SSSR declared war to Bulgaria and invaded it; three days later, a coup led filo-communist party to the government, and they started to fight against retreating Germans until the war front moved too far from Bulgarian borders.  In this phase, the use of yellow is unlikely. I suppose that red or red-green is more likely.

 

Looking at bw photos, one can argue that the color of the front of the rings is not the same of the rudders.  If we assume that rudders were yellow in some time, the rings were darker. 

Unfortunately none of the photos I have is dated, so this obstacles an attempt to reconstruct a chronology for color changes.

 

The provisional page is here:

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/sb/tapani/b-71/bulgarian/bulgarian.htm

Please, let me know your considerations on this. 

Regards

Massimo

[GrzeM]

I have a few remarks:

Both PZL P.24 and PZL P.43 used by Bulgarians had the engine cowlings in red already before the war:

Book by Stratus Editions about PZL P.23/43 states that the new Bulgarian national markings (black St. Andrew's crosses) were introduced on 15th July 1940, while yellow quick recoginion markings (cowling, rudder, fuselage band, wingtips etc. - typical for all axis froces on Balkan and later on Eastern Front) in 1941 spring prior to the German invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece. Bulgaria did not participate in the invasion directly but allowed German forces to use Bulgarian territory and took part in partition of Greek and Yugoslavian lands after the fights.
Maybe these information help a bit.

Edited November 15, 2018 by GrzeM

[modelldoc]

KORA Decals give for the Bulgarian EaglesMesserschmitt Bf-109E Strela the "normal" german colours:

 

Black-green RLM 70 / Yellow RLM 27 / Grey RLM 02 / Light Blue RLM 65

 

modelldoc

[Massimo Tessitori]

Quote

Both PZL P.24 and PZL P.43 used by Bulgarians had the engine cowlings in red already before the war:

Quote

Book by Stratus Editions about PZL P.23/43 states that the new Bulgarian national markings (black St. Andrew's crosses) were introduced on 15th July 1940, while yellow quick recoginion markings (cowling, rudder, fuselage band, wingtips etc. - typical for all axis froces on Balkan and later on Eastern Front) in 1941 spring prior to the German invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece. Bulgaria did not participate in the invasion directly but allowed German forces to use Bulgarian territory and took part in partition of Greek and Yugoslavian lands after the fights.

Thank you, these notes are interesting. 

I try to attempt a profile of a B.71 with the early markings in 1939/41.

About the cowlings, a pair of photos seem to show them completely camouflaged on some planes, but this could be not representative of them all. 

A photo that could have yellow rudder and elevators seem to show a darker color on the cowling, so I suppose that they preserved red at least for some time or some plane.

I would understand how the planes were marked when they fought against Germans in late 1944. 

Regards

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi All, 

the page is online and finished.

 

It includes a recostruction of the look of a prewar plane too

 

 

Thank you to all those that gave suggestions for this work. 

 

Regards

Massimo

[Ray_W]

I decided to resurrect this thread to see if there is any latest information on Bulgarian colours. My interest is in their Stuka D-5's.

 

The typical profile image of white 30 is as follows. This example is the LF models decal sheet.

 

 

This colour scheme is typical for many artist's profile views. The only image of the actual aircraft I can find is what appears to be a possible White 30 closest to the camera in this popular image.

 

 

My challenge is whether it had yellow markings and a red spiral spinner.

 

Yellow Theatre Markings

 

I can find no evidence of a yellow tipped wing, yellow banded D-5 aircraft in the typical German Balkan markings.

 

Looking at quite a number of D-5 photos everything seems to be non-existent or white, either covering the previous yellow or as a new application. These white markings, as is generally accepted, were done when Bulgaria swapped sides and joined the Allied forces in late September 1944.  There is a nice photo at Plovdiv showing the airport with a number of types, including Soviet aircraft, and the white theatre markings. In Nedialkov's latest publication, he now titles the below photo being taken in September 1944. This makes sense with a fly in of some soviet types and bright, white, freshly painted white bands coinciding with the change.

 

 

Note the Ju-87 with wheel spats. I believe that photos of D-5's without wheel spats were taken after end September 1944. The photos of aircraft without wheel spats are quite war weary typifying their mission role of attacking German targets after September 1944 having had limited combat prior to the changeover and the Soviet influence in Bulgaria.

 

Was there yellow on D-5's? I have not seen it.

 

Note that this discussion is focussed on the Ju-87 D-5. I have not studied fighter aircraft used by Bulgaria in their defence against allied bombing raids prior to September 1944 where yellow may of been common. 

 

Red Spiral Spinner

 

I do not know where the red spiral spinner concept came from. All photos I have seen of Bulgarian D-5's typically show a very strong edged, I would suggest, black and white neatly painted spinner like the following image. Photography experts can tell me whether red can appear darker than the Black/green prop blades. Is there other evidence supporting a red/white spinner?

 

 

This photo of white 17 is interesting. The tail shows a faint demarcation line possibly indicating the red/green (green on top) separation or green overpainted previously white.  I am guessing, but as Hungary was still in the war on the German side and with the same National Colours, possibly the deletion of the white was to avoid confusion while still presenting Bulgarian National colours.

 

 

If there is red on that tail, it certainly does not look as dark as the spinner or the black in the Bulgarian National markings, even allowing for different angles and light variation. 

 

 

Conclusions: For White 30 and a general comment on Bulgarian D-5's after September 194 - yellow wing tips and stripes should be white and that spinner is black and white. I'm ok with the green/red tail marking. 

 

Does someone have the evidence they can share for the popular White 30 markings as presented by a number of artists contrary to these conclusions? 

 

Another Subject - Dappled Camouflage

 

One of the interesting Bulgarian Stuka themes is White 46 with its overpainted dappled finish breaking up the RLM 70/71 scheme.

 

Note: As an aside note colour of band and under wing a close match to the whites in the Bulgarian National markings. Still with wheel spats and no Bulgarian red/Green on the rudder. If I put a date on this I would say late September 1944.

 

 

 

When looking at this camouflage pattern I wondered why was it not applied on all Bulgarian Stuka?

 

I like to model that with good photographic evidence and/or there is a body of knowledge supporting the chosen subject, for this reason, the most likely subject for my current build, is White 17 where there are a number of photographs. When I look at photos of other late war D-5's  there appears to be evidence of the same scheme. See the following image of White 17.

 

 

 

 

Now this would make White 17 a very interesting subject indeed.

 

There is a couple of different interpretations of this scheme, overpainted RLM 76 or some other colour. What is it? Is there any correlation that can be drawn with other field applied Bulgarian schemes? Any ideas? If none coming, I'll just finish in weathered RLM 70/71 with no overpainting, however, some discussion on this would be helpful.

 

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully of some interest and some of the members may have some information supporting a counter view or, hopefully, filling in the gaps.

 

I have used mostly the excellent publications by Dimitar Nedialkov and www.lostbulgaria.com in this discussion.

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Ray_W
missing word

[modelldoc]

Here my Bulgarian Messerschmitts:

 

Early:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/45364183474/in/dateposted/

 

Late:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/47447473222/in/dateposted/

 

modelldoc

[dogsbody]

Canadian aviation author, Carl Vincent, has asked me to post this for him.

 

"    I strayed, almost accidentally, into this post on Bulgarian colours. Way back, in the cretinaceous age a half-century ago, I actually built models before succumbing to the attractions of primary source research and writing on Canadian aircraft. These included Axis aircraft and, at that time – late 1960’s/ very early 1970’s – one of the best of published sources on Luftwaffe aircraft, colours and markings were the eight books by Karl Ries, the four Dora Kurfurst und Rote 13 volumes and the four on Luftwaffe camouflage and markings. I have seen few references to these lately and, possibly, they have been rendered obsolete, although they must contain over 1000 photos, most of which I have never seen elsewhere, and a great deal of information, drawings etc. Anyway, I vaguely recalled that there were a couple of colour photos of Bulgarian aircraft and was fortunate enough to locate them without undue effort. They are attached. I have no comment whatsoever to make on the interpretation of the colours, but they may be of some interest.  "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Ray_W]

7 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Canadian aviation author, Carl Vincent, has asked me to post this for him.

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for posting and please extend my special thanks to Carl. The colour image of the yellow striped Bulgarian Bf 109's is great confirmation of this colour scheme. I also loved the very evocative image of the Bf 110's on Karl Reis's book. I'm glad I resurrected this thread and great to get this response.

 

I too enjoy the research phase, although, at this stage anyway, focussed on my current modelling subject. I'll keep hunting for confirmation of colour schemes of those Bulgarian Ju-87's.

 

Ray

[Super Aereo]

Denes Bernad has recently authored two volumes for Mushroom Model Publishing: Bulgarian Fighter Colours 1919-1948 Vol. 1 and 2.

 

They only cover fighters but are a mine of information.

[Ray_W]

3 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

Denes Bernad has recently authored two volumes for Mushroom Model Publishing: Bulgarian Fighter Colours 1919-1948 Vol. 1 and 2.

 

They only cover fighters but are a mine of information.

Yes excellent titles for those modelling Bulgarian fighters, there are some fascinating subjects.

[Ventsislav Gramatski]

15 hours ago, Ray_W said:

Yes excellent titles for those modelling Bulgarian fighters, there are some fascinating subjects.

 

Another upvote for Denes' epic work - in fact, I was just reading through Vol.II. 

 

Myself having spent over twenty years, since early childhood, on Bulgarian aviation history, those two volumes are the go-to resources you will need.

 

Bulgaria acquired large amounts of paints from Germany with the acquisition of the first batch of Bf 109E3a's. These weren't all RLM stocks but for modelling purposes you're safe with RLM 04 yellow as recognition ID. It was used on all Bulgarian combat planes up to September 1944 as quick recognition marking. Following leaving the Axis, VNVV command issued white as recognition markings.

 

Red, green and white were the unit colors of various yato's in a fighter orlyak (roughly staffel and Gruppe equivalents), yellow used in the Stab staffel as in Luftwaffe.

 

Denes gives a different color scheme for the Bulgarian Emils - the closest equivalents being RLM 62 Grun, RLM 71 Dark Green and RLM 65 Hellblau.

 

I have to say I agree with him here, most colour schemes on the web are wrong and don't match photos.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Ventsislav Gramatski
RLM color typo

[Ray_W]

7 hours ago, Ventsislav Gramatski said:

 

Another upvote for Denes' epic work - in fact, I was just reading through Vol.II. 

 

Myself having spent over twenty years, since early childhood, on Bulgarian aviation history, those two volumes are the go-to resources you will need.

 

Bulgaria acquired large amounts of paints from Germany with the acquisition of the first batch of Bf 109E3a's. These weren't all RLM stocks but for modelling purposes you're safe with RLM 04 yellow as recognition ID. It was used on all Bulgarian combat planes up to September 1944 as quick recognition marking. Following leaving the Axis, VNVV command issued white as recognition markings.

 

Red, green and white were the unit colors of various yato's in a fighter orlyak (roughly staffel and Gruppe equivalents), yellow used in the Stab staffel as in Luftwaffe.

 

Denes gives a different color scheme for the Bulgarian Emils - the closest equivalents being RLM 62 Grun, RLM 70 Dark Green and RLM 65 Hellblau.

 

I have to say I agree with him here, most colour schemes on the web are wrong and don't match photos.

 Hi Ventsislav,

 

Thanks for coming in with this information.

 

The use of a close equivalent to RLM 62 is interesting. As I am modelling the Ju-87 D-5, this seems a better colour, to my thinking, for the over painted dapple finish on the standard RLM 70/71 for aircraft like White 46. All of this is of course speculation as it is difficult to assess from a black and white photo. 

 

 

Reproduced from Dimitar Nedialkov's  book The History of Bulgarian Air Power

 

And a better colour for my current build, White 17, if I choose to do the dappled finish that seems to be applied.

 

 

 

There also appears to be a white upward pointing arrow on the starboard fuselage side at the pilot's position. What did this designate? Has it been seen on any other Bulgarian aircraft? (Edit: answered my own question, this will be the usual triangular notice symbol placed on German aircraft (e.g fuel type), the "arrow" leg will be some other effect I'll ignore)

 

 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[Ray_W]

Carmel Attard's build of the Bulgarian Avia B-534 on Modelling Madness (https://modelingmadness.com/review/axis/attardb534.htm) is in line with my view of the application of a lighter green to break up the RLM 70/71 scheme of the Ju-87.

[Ventsislav Gramatski]

Ray, the mottled camouflage is often seen on many types in service in the VNVV in the latter years of the war.

 

There'sa lot of the debate what the colours used were - light grey (certainly), light green or a combination of both. There are also a number of camouflages with dark green areas of unknown type, not RLM.

 

This is pure speculation on my part but the colours of the aircraft produced at Bulgaria's two companies - DAR and KB - were either light grey or, usually, dark green. I believe there were large stocks of these paints and these were used during repairs and domestic camouflages.

 

It's not regulated anywhere but the general similarity of the mottled Bulgarian camouflages seems to indicate there was an idea behind it.

 

I've always interpreted these mottles as light grey but if you want to go with light green, I'd suggest picking up one of the lighter RLM shades.

[Ray_W]

Ventsislav, Great information again. I know Kora Models show the profile with their 1/72 decal sheet for Ju-87 White 46 with RLM 76 overspray.  It's a couple of weeks before I need to make a decision.  

[Troy Smith]

On 25/02/2020 at 12:27, Ray_W said:

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully of some interest

Great post. No need to apologise.  Very interesting, and a lot of new info too me.

[JWM]

Besides all interesting colour questions it is interesting also to analyze what can be found on Plovdiv airfield '45  photo

 

Obvious are several Ju 87s and few D 520, but what is more - are they Yak fighters? And Boston (on right?). I can recognize at least two KB 11 Fazan (one is between Stuka and Boston), second in the middle part, third machine right from road.

Are they really Yaks and what  markings are on them?

 

 

[Ray_W]

 

11 minutes ago, JWM said:

Obvious are several Ju 87s and few D 520, but what is more - are they Yak fighters? And Boston (on right?). I can recognize at least two KB 11 Fazan (one is between Stuka and Boston), second in the middle part, third machine right from road.

Are they really Yaks and what  markings are on them?

 

Those will be Soviet aircraft now using the airfield after Bulgaria joined the Allied side. I would say immediately flown in when field was available at the end of September 1944. Bulgaria being previously a German ally saw the writing on the wall and declared neutrality in August 1944. The Soviets threatened to invade. Bulgaria joined the Allied side in September 1944. 

 

My guess is the white band was applied in August to show neutrality rather than for the Soviets. 

[Graham Boak]

White markings were also displayed by the Romanians when they changed sides, there being no pretence at neutrality, so I suspect the same reasoning applied to the Bulgarians,

 

If you visit http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?board=12.0  you may be able to ask for more information about the Yak units and their markings.