Ju 188 without swastika?

[rossm]

Having an old Italeri kit buried in the stash I took a fancy to these Owl decals for KG2 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/207332-owl-ds72012-junkers-ju-188-a-2-u5-kh-1-kg-2

 

What I'm wondering about is the lack of swastika - is this just PC or do I vaguely remember some Luftwaffe units removed them?

[gamevender]

I don't think it's a matter of PC, but rather a legal one. Italeri kits are distributed in German where the swastika is illegal and it cost too much to make two versions of the decal and control what versions went in which kits that got shipped wherever. 

[Mike]

I remember one unit removing them from their aircraft in protest at something, but I thought they were fighters, and my dodgy memory remembers 109s

 

Some companies don't put Swastikas on to avoid local hassles, some put them on corners so they can be cut off, and others provide them in two parts so the modeller can join them together to make a cranked cross for historical accuracy.  Check your local laws before you display any though, as it differs by country.  Here in the UK it's not a problem yet, although some bright spark will probably eventually brand us all Nazis because we make the aircraft they flew in. <polishes jackboots>

[rossm]

46 minutes ago, gamevender said:

I don't think it's a matter of PC, but rather a legal one. Italeri kits are distributed in German where the swastika is illegal and it cost too much to make two versions of the decal and control what versions went in which kits that got shipped wherever. 

It's not the kit I'm worried about but the decals. I would like to find the photo which presumably exists for this aircraft of I/KG2 captued at Bron airfield near Lyon in July (?) 1944 in order to see if the swastika should be there.

[B-17 man]

Personally, I would just put them on as the likelihood of a luftwaffe aircraft that served during WWII not having swastikas is slim to none. And it’s too easy to source a decal sheet of swastikas in various sizes. 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

     I recall a thread or two on the old lemb of photos of late 1944 luftwaffe a/c without swastikas, some without any national markings at all, with just a type of mirror wave camo 

 

  an FW200 springs to mind, the photo was somewhere like crete ? rhodes ? 

   

   lemb is one website i wish was still going 😩 it was a mine of info with photos on axis a/c and captured allied a/c 

 

ps 

   link to a page with photos of a KG 6 188 with no swastika 

 

https://144airbattle.blogspot.com/2016/02/1144-junkers-ju-188.html?m=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

and this one 

 

http://www.warmemorialsww1.co.uk/ww2-air-crash

 

 

   cheers

     jerry

Edited October 26, 2018 by brewerjerry

[Procopius]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I remember one unit removing them from their aircraft in protest at something, but I thought they were fighters, and my dodgy memory remembers 109s

JG53 during the Battle of Britain.

[Sturmovik]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I remember one unit removing them from their aircraft in protest at something, but I thought they were fighters, and my dodgy memory remembers 109s

As a revenge against Göring for forcing them to abandon the Ace of Spades and wear a red band of shame, pilots of JG 53 in the 1940s removed their  swastikas from their Bf 109s as a form of protest.

The whole issue was with the wife of the Commanding Officer of JG 53, she wasn't Aryan enough for the Third Reich's standards.

The red band looked cool though.

Airfix had it on one of their 1:24 Bf 109E releases, with markings for Werner Meyerweissflog aircraft.

 

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/messerschmitt-bf-109e-1b-the-shameful-red-band/amp/

Edited October 26, 2018 by Sturmovik

[Sturmovik]

51 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

     I recall a thread or two on the old lemb of photos of late 1944 luftwaffe a/c without swastikas, some without any national markings at all, with just a type of mirror wave camo 

 

  an FW200 springs to mind, the photo was somewhere like crete ? rhodes ? 

   

   lemb is one website i wish was still going 😩 it was a mine of info with photos on axis a/c and captured allied a/c 

 

ps 

   link to a page with photos of a KG 6 188 with no swastika 

 

https://144airbattle.blogspot.com/2016/02/1144-junkers-ju-188.html?m=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

and this one 

 

http://www.warmemorialsww1.co.uk/ww2-air-crash

 

 

   cheers

     jerry

Never thought some Luftwaffe aircraft wouldn't wear the swastika.

[Denford]

4 hours ago, gamevender said:

I don't think it's a matter of PC, but rather a legal one. Italeri kits are distributed in German where the swastika is illegal and it cost too much to make two versions of the decal and control what versions went in which kits that got shipped wherever. 

Depiction of the swastika is not illegal in Germany, only its use out of context.

It's perfectly OK to use it on WWll models, show it featured newsreels/contemporary photos etc because they are in the correct context.  So too, rather curiously, are the armbands and other trapping in 'The Sound of Music', which although total fiction are part of the plot and again in the correct historical context.

What is not allowed however is the shape used for example in biscuits, chocolates, momentoes etc. 

This subject has regularly arisen over the years in my German Classes (all taught by German subjects) and, always with the same answer.

Whilst it may be legal to include them on decals, box art etc, it makes very poor commercial sense to do so.  Better to play safe and leave them off, or include them 'in parts'.

Somewhat like sex!  It can't be openly advertised, but not hard to find if you know where to look!

[Holzhamer]

Here’s a photo of the actual plane, no swastika used. I am half way building this plane in 1/48 using the same decals, though I disagree with the wing patterns suggested by OWL.

photo was taken from some online Pinterest source

 

 

 

[rossm]

46 minutes ago, Holzhamer said:

Here’s a photo of the actual plane, no swastika used. I am half way building this plane in 1/48 using the same decals, though I disagree with the wing patterns suggested by OWL.

photo was taken from some online Pinterest source

Fantastic, better Googling than my attempts, thanks,

Ross

[Tweener]

188 is a beautiful plane! Sadly I don't know much about them, or any German aircraft other than the plain 88. How is the Italeri kit?

 

[tempestfan]

12 hours ago, Denford said:

Depiction of the swastika is not illegal in Germany, only its use out of context.

It's perfectly OK to use it on WWll models, show it featured newsreels/contemporary photos etc because they are in the correct context.  So too, rather curiously, are the armbands and other trapping in 'The Sound of Music', which although total fiction are part of the plot and again in the correct historical context.

What is not allowed however is the shape used for example in biscuits, chocolates, momentoes etc. 

This subject has regularly arisen over the years in my German Classes (all taught by German subjects) and, always with the same answer.

Whilst it may be legal to include them on decals, box art etc, it makes very poor commercial sense to do so.  Better to play safe and leave them off, or include them 'in parts'.

Somewhat like sex!  It can't be openly advertised, but not hard to find if you know where to look!

Sorry, but that is only semi correct. The whole issue of its use on kits was triggered by a 1979 verdict of the German high court who ruled a mass distribution of swastikas as on kits illegal. Subject was the Matchbox SdKfz 251 with the big Fliegersichtkennung on its hood. So it IS illegal to have it included on kits or depict it on box artwork. It is legal to show it e.g in contemporary photos in books; use on profile drawings should be legal too, but this is already a somewhat grey area. Having read the verdict and being „from the trade“, it is my understanding that it’s also legal to show it publicly on built kits, but many show organizers will ask to cover it, as there are different views among state attorneys about this.

Also note that e.g. Airfix apparently took an early conscious decision as none of their kits released pre-1972 had swastikas, the first one I‘m aware of is the 1/24  109 and then Do 17. This may have something to do with Mr Kove‘s background. Similarly, note the subtext in Revell‘s early H-615 190 instructions who refused to show the sign for being „against the spirit of democracy“. While I am generally uncomfortable about using the term „PC“, those two examples would be highly inappropriate to apply it to (not that you did that, of course).

[rossm]

14 hours ago, Denford said:

Depiction of the swastika is not illegal in Germany, only its use out of context.

It's perfectly OK to use it on WWll models, show it featured newsreels/contemporary photos etc because they are in the correct context.  So too, rather curiously, are the armbands and other trapping in 'The Sound of Music', which although total fiction are part of the plot and again in the correct historical context.

What is not allowed however is the shape used for example in biscuits, chocolates, momentoes etc. 

This subject has regularly arisen over the years in my German Classes (all taught by German subjects) and, always with the same answer.

Whilst it may be legal to include them on decals, box art etc, it makes very poor commercial sense to do so.  Better to play safe and leave them off, or include them 'in parts'.

Somewhat like sex!  It can't be openly advertised, but not hard to find if you know where to look!

 

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

Sorry, but that is only semi correct. The whole issue of its use on kits was triggered by a 1979 verdict of the German high court who ruled a mass distribution of swastikas as on kits illegal. Subject was the Matchbox SdKfz 251 with the big Fliegersichtkennung on its hood. So it IS illegal to have it included on kits or depict it on box artwork. It is legal to show it e.g in contemporary photos in books; use on profile drawings should be legal too, but this is already a somewhat grey area. Having read the verdict and being „from the trade“, it is my understanding that it’s also legal to show it publicly on built kits, but many show organizers will ask to cover it, as there are different views among state attorneys about this.

Also note that e.g. Airfix apparently took an early conscious decision as none of their kits released pre-1972 had swastikas, the first one I‘m aware of is the 1/24  109 and then Do 17. This may have something to do with Mr Kove‘s background. Similarly, note the subtext in Revell‘s early H-615 190 instructions who refused to show the sign for being „against the spirit of democracy“. While I am generally uncomfortable about using the term „PC“, those two examples would be highly inappropriate to apply it to (not that you did that, of course).

 

Interesting, my personal point of view is that it should be ok to use it on a historically accurate model but I can see the point about mass distribution keeping it out of kits on general sale in shops. I'd also prevent its use on documentation like labels for models - the plain cross should suffice if a common emblem is needed for a group of models in the same way a roundel might be used for a group of British aircraft. The problem for the lawmakers is how to write a law that doesn't have "grey area" loopholes and in this case I'm in favour of more restriction rather than less.

 

I'd like to close that part of this thread there please................

 

In terms of my reason for starting the topic - finding out if Owl were right to leave off any (legal) indication of a swastika - I have now been shown a photo (thanks Holzhamer) which confirms they were correct - unless that is a tiny one just in front of the mans hand? (see post 11 for full photo).

 

[Graham Boak]

11 hours ago, Tweener said:

188 is a beautiful plane! Sadly I don't know much about them, or any German aircraft other than the plain 88. How is the Italeri kit?

 

I find it attractive too.  The Italeri kit is now quite elderly.  In quality it falla somewhere between the crude Matchbox and the superb Hasegawa.  In terms of accuracy, the Jumo engine cowlings taper too much but the BMW ones are much better.  The wing is at too shallow an incidence and the wingtips lack the significant washout or twist which provides the characteristic appearance of a link in the aileron.  Like all kits of the Ju88 family until recently, the shape of the rear fuselage is simplified and lacks the way the underside tapers earlier than the uppers.

 

If you have the freedom of choice then the Hasegawa is the kit to go for, but the Italeri can produce a nice model, at least of the BMW variants.   AIMS used to produce good replacement Jumo cowlings.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Max Headroom]

Slightly off topic (sorry) but there are other swaztikaless options too

 

http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/ju-188/ju-188.htm

 

Trevor

[rossm]

4 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Slightly off topic (sorry) but there are other swaztikaless options too

 

http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/ju-188/ju-188.htm

 

Trevor

 

That's ok, it gives me a chance to say my aim is to make a model of one that may have been used in the battle for Normandy.

[brewerjerry]

2 hours ago, rossm said:

....... 

 

In terms of my reason for starting the topic - finding out if Owl were right to leave off any (legal) indication of a swastika - I have now been shown a photo (thanks Holzhamer) which confirms they were correct - unless that is a tiny one just in front of the mans hand? (see post 11 for full photo).

 

 

Hi

    To my eyes the swastika is reversed,

 

so does that mean the photo is reversed and it is actually looking at the port side of the aircraft ? 

 

    cheers

       jerru

[bentwaters81tfw]

19 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

 

Hi

    To my eyes the swastika is reversed,

 

so does that mean the photo is reversed and it is actually looking at the port side of the aircraft ? 

 

    cheers

       jerru

If you look at the full size photo in post no 11, you will see the code letters KH, and these are not reversed.

[Holzhamer]

 

Ross, this an interesting and very relevant finding  on the photo I posted. The zoom you made shows a crude painted reversed swastika (oddly it’s the good swastika) wich was probably brushed by the American (?) fella posing in the photo.

My educated guess is that the absence of a proper nazi insignia on the tail plane puzzled him as much as everyone’s else in this thread, so for the sake of a good (and believable) home taking war prize photo he added that makeshift swastika

[NPL]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:24 AM, tempestfan said:

Sorry, but that is only semi correct. The whole issue of its use on kits was triggered by a 1979 verdict of the German high court who ruled a mass distribution of swastikas as on kits illegal. Subject was the Matchbox SdKfz 251 with the big Fliegersichtkennung on its hood. So it IS illegal to have it included on kits or depict it on box artwork. It is legal to show it e.g in contemporary photos in books; use on profile drawings should be legal too, but this is already a somewhat grey area. Having read the verdict and being „from the trade“, it is my understanding that it’s also legal to show it publicly on built kits, but many show organizers will ask to cover it, as there are different views among state attorneys about this.

Also note that e.g. Airfix apparently took an early conscious decision as none of their kits released pre-1972 had swastikas, the first one I‘m aware of is the 1/24  109 and then Do 17. This may have something to do with Mr Kove‘s background. Similarly, note the subtext in Revell‘s early H-615 190 instructions who refused to show the sign for being „against the spirit of democracy“. While I am generally uncomfortable about using the term „PC“, those two examples would be highly inappropriate to apply it to (not that you did that, of course).

Am I totally wrong if I think that real WW II airplanes an display at German museums do not have swastikas.  I googled it (Deutsches Museum), and it seems so. So when even genuine survivors are stripped of swastikas, I believe that models with them will not be well received in Germany. 

Just to put the discussion into perspective.

[vppelt68]

Don't the Italeri BMW engines lack the very visible "signature" fan blades at the engine face? V-P

[tempestfan]

It may depend on who pays for the museum. It is definitely legal to have it on a museum example, but a public one may have reservations on „promoting“ the symbol as an official act, so to say. It’s been a long time since I was there, but think e.g. the private museum at Laatzen has swastikas on the models as well as on the real planes. Well, apparently not (just looked up their homepage...

BTW, is +EE above an E or F, for a change?

[Seahawk]

3 hours ago, vppelt68 said:

Don't the Italeri BMW engines lack the very visible "signature" fan blades at the engine face? V-P

Yes.  But Aeroclub used to do fanblades for the front of the Fw 190 which could be used.