Battle of Britain 80th GB Chat

[Ozzy]

19 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Or even Duck Egg Blue or perhaps Eau de Nil? I won’t even try to answer this can of worms only to say that regular Sky might be a safe bet. 
Cheers.. Dave 

 

Thanks Dave,

 

ive been having a look and agree, it could definitely open a . I’ll have a look at what I have on the shelf.

 

 

 

[lasermonkey]

3 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Quick question, what colour is best for the underside of a Battle of Britain Spitfire? Is it sky gray of sky?

Most likely it would be Sky, but if you know the serial number and squadron, it may be possible to say whether any if the substitute colours were plausible. Parts of Spitfires belonging to both No. 41 and No. 603 squadrons were found to have Sky Grey on them.

[Ozzy]

6 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

Most likely it would be Sky, but if you know the serial number and squadron, it may be possible to say whether any if the substitute colours were plausible. Parts of Spitfires belonging to both No. 41 and No. 603 squadrons were found to have Sky Grey on them.

Thanks, I will have a google.

[lasermonkey]

53 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Thanks, I will have a google.

If you have a particular airframe in mind, if you let me know the serial number (if known) or any other details, we may be able to get an idea of the colouring. That is assuming you have chosen your subject already!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Ozzy]

17 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

If you have a particular airframe in mind, if you let me know the serial number (if known) or any other details, we may be able to get an idea of the colouring. That is assuming you have chosen your subject already!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Wow Thanks Mark,

 

i do do its a 92 Sqn Spitfire, K9998 QJ K.

[SleeperService]

27 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

If you have a particular airframe in mind, if you let me know the serial number (if known) or any other details, we may be able to get an idea of the colouring. That is assuming you have chosen your subject already!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

If I may be so bold I'm entering with a Gladiator would that be in sky too?

[Scimitar F1]

5 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Or even Duck Egg Blue or perhaps Eau de Nil? I won’t even try to answer this can of worms only to say that regular Sky might be a safe bet. 
Cheers.. Dave 

 

Colourcoats have some nice interpretations. Humbrol 90 apparently is a good match for Sky 

[lasermonkey]

39 minutes ago, SleeperService said:

If I may be so bold I'm entering with a Gladiator would that be in sky too?

I haven't seen any reference to Gladiators being in anything but Sky (during the BoB) , so I don't think you can go wrong with it here.

[lasermonkey]

57 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Wow Thanks Mark,

 

i do do its a 92 Sqn Spitfire, K9998 QJ K.

 

Ok, what I could find out about K9998:

 

Batch completed by 04/09/39. Finished in the A scheme with 2" black serials on the fin (none painted on the fuselage at this time).

 

The fuselage roundels would originally have been a 15" type B, later replaced with a type A1, then a 25" (or possibly 30") type A in November/December '39. These were then adjusted to type A1 (with the yellow outer ring) in May '40, so a 25" roundel would the become a 35" (and I think the most likely candidate, in other words, the "standard" BoB roundel), 30" would become 42" and 35" would become a whopping 49", though some units, 92 Sqn included, often painted a thin yellow ring instead. I'd go with the "standard" 35" type A1.

 

The upper wing roundel, as supplied, would have been a type B with a 31.2" diameter. Whether this was repainted or not, I don't know but I can't find any reference to K9998 having any major rework, so probably not.

 

Underwing roundels (type A) were applied mid August '40. There doesn't seem to be any standard size or location, but as K9998 arrived with No. 92 Sqn on 02/07/40 you could leave them off for that period.

 

Squadron codes were painted forward of the roundels on both sides ( 92 Sqn was one of the few that did this) , so on the port side it reads QJ@K and on the starboard side K@QJ. I don't know whether the serial number was repainted on the fuselage.

 

As supplied, K9998 had the early "pole" style radio mast. No voltage regulator (the device fitted behind the headrest), so leave that off.

 

As to the undersides, I think that Sky is by far the most likely colour. K9998 came to 92 Sqn from an Air Training Service and I don't think that any of these were in the regions where Eau-de-Nil or Sky Blue are known to have been applied.

 

I haven't seen any photos of K9998 and if any do exist, it would be a great help if anyone could point us in the right direction. Otherwise, I hope the info above is useful enough to get a good idea of how she would have looked. References used were Spitfire The History, Fighter Squadrons Of The Royal Air Force and the Spitfire camouflage and markings feature in the November 1982 edition of Scale Aircraft Modelling, scans of which can be seen here.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

[Ozzy]

8 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

 

Ok, what I could find out about K9998:

 

Batch completed by 04/09/39. Finished in the A scheme with 2" black serials on the fin (none painted on the fuselage at this time).

 

The fuselage roundels would originally have been a 15" type B, later replaced with a type A1, then a 25" (or possibly 30") type A in November/December '39. These were then adjusted to type A1 (with the yellow outer ring) in May '40, so a 25" roundel would the become a 35" (and I think the most likely candidate, in other words, the "standard" BoB roundel), 30" would become 42" and 35" would become a whopping 49", though some units, 92 Sqn included, often painted a thin yellow ring instead. I'd go with the "standard" 35" type A1.

 

The upper wing roundel, as supplied, would have been a type B with a 31.2" diameter. Whether this was repainted or not, I don't know but I can't find any reference to K9998 having any major rework, so probably not.

 

Underwing roundels (type A) were applied mid August '40. There doesn't seem to be any standard size or location, but as K9998 arrived with No. 92 Sqn on 02/07/40 you could leave them off for that period.

 

Squadron codes were painted forward of the roundels on both sides ( 92 Sqn was one of the few that did this) , so on the port side it reads QJ@K and on the starboard side K@QJ. I don't know whether the serial number was repainted on the fuselage.

 

As supplied, K9998 had the early "pole" style radio mast. No voltage regulator (the device fitted behind the headrest), so leave that off.

 

As to the undersides, I think that Sky is by far the most likely colour. K9998 came to 92 Sqn from an Air Training Service and I don't think that any of these were in the regions where Eau-de-Nil or Sky Blue are known to have been applied.

 

I haven't seen any photos of K9998 and if any do exist, it would be a great help if anyone could point us in the right direction. Otherwise, I hope the info above is useful enough to get a good idea of how she would have looked. References used were Spitfire The History, Fighter Squadrons Of The Royal Air Force and the Spitfire camouflage and markings feature in the November 1982 edition of Scale Aircraft Modelling, scans of which can be seen here.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

Mark, that’s brilliant thanks 

[lasermonkey]

I'll put this in a separate post as I think it's really useful to have. I scanned the SAM November '82 Spitfire feature and uploaded it here. Even though it's now quite old, it's still one of the best resources for early Spitfire information, especially regarding the various roundel combinations, equipment fit, squadron code usage and camouflage. If you're building a Spitfire, you could do a lot worse than read the article!

 

Another useful, long out of print resource is the Ducimus Camouflage & Markings series, all of which can be found here. Not my work at all, but well worth a look.

 

Hope this helps,

Mark.

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

I'll put this in a separate post as I think it's really useful to have. I scanned the SAM November '82 Spitfire feature and uploaded it here. Even though it's now quite old, it's still one of the best resources for early Spitfire information, especially regarding the various roundel combinations, equipment fit, squadron code usage and camouflage. If you're building a Spitfire, you could do a lot worse than read the article!

 

Another useful, long out of print resource is the Ducimus Camouflage & Markings series, all of which can be found here. Not my work at all, but well worth a look.

 

Hope this helps,

Mark.

Brilliant thanks for your guidance Mark.

[Procopius]

Eighty years ago today, on 25 May 1940, the War Cabinet met in London. With the fall of Boulogne, only two Channel ports remained: Calais, already under siege by the 10th Panzer Division, and Dunkirk. Lord Gort believed that given the gravity of the situation, only a small portion of the BEF might be evacuated from France before catastrophe overtook them.

 

The War Cabinet had not only this news to contemplate, but also a paper prepared for them by the Imperial General Staff, entitled "British Strategy in a Certain Eventuality". That "certain eventuality" was the collapse of France. The Imperial General Staff wrote:

 

The vital fact is that our ability to avoid defeat will depend on three factors :­
(a) Whether the morale of our people will withstand the strain of air bombardment;
(b) Whether it will be possible to import the absolute essential minimum of commodities necessary to sustain life and to keep our war industries in action;
(c) Our capacity to resist invasion.
All of these depend primarily on whether our fighter defences will be able to reduce the scale of attack to reasonable bounds.

 

 

 

[Tim Moff]

Just looking at decals and Sqn Code sizes - I managed to get the Xtradecal set of MSG codes, 24'' and 30'' - comparing them to the Hurricane and Spitfire 1 box decals, looks like 30'' for Hurricanes and 24'' for Spitfires are generally the best? I know its a can of worms so do not want to open one, research shows that each aircraft was different...am looking at 66 Sqn and 609 Sqn for Spits - any advice welcome and 249 Sqn for the Hurricane!

 

Managed to get a copy of Bombsites over England for my 110. Will be using @Stew Dapple 's great 1/72 build as a hand rail for my build as I have the same decals in 1/48 - may be some PMs on the way!

 

 

Just realised that my Eduard 109 does not have a pilot - if anyone has any 1/48 WW2 German pilots sitting in a scraps box furloughed, I could put one to use! Tempted by another 109, the Tamiya looks good, as does the new Airfix offering - any views on the best one?

[JackG]

For this group build,I've drawn up a few different squadron codes after studying photos.  Have only looked at Hurricanes, and of those, only 249 crosses paths with your inquiries.  This is what I've concluded, based on this photo along with the assumption the fuselage roundel is 35 inches:

 

 

Of course, code dimensions could change over time,   I think this shot is later in the battle?   Anyhow,  the brush stroke is smaller than the roundel rings, so for certain less than five inches.

 

 so

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

For 609 codes,  I do recall having to beef up the brush stroke to match period photos.  I think they were Decal Carpena brand.

 

 

-------------------------------------

 

For 109 E, Tamiya brand is still a good choice,  specially since you require a pilot (as does the Airfix offering).   In my opinion, Eduard option only trumps this if you must have rivets on the skin.   There is some discrepancies with their fuselage length and cockpit position.   Will they fix this upon their new release - unknown.   There are a couple other brands with slated 1/48 Emil releases, Wingsy Kits and WingTech (Dragon brand), though may not be out in time for the GB time frame.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Tim Moff]

9 minutes ago, JackG said:

For this group build,I've drawn up a few different squadron codes after studying photos.  Have only looked at Hurricanes, and of those, only 249 crosses paths with your inquiries.  This is what I've concluded, based on this photo along with the assumption the fuselage roundel is 35 inches:

 

 

Of course, code dimensions could change over time,   I think this shot is later in the battle?   Anyhow,  the brush stroke is smaller than the roundel rings, so for certain less than five inches.

 

 so

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

For 609 codes,  I do recall having to beef up the brush stroke to match period photos.  I think they were Decal Carpena brand.

 

 

-------------------------------------

 

For 109 E, Tamiya brand is still a good choice,  specially since you require a pilot (as does the Airfix offering).   In my opinion, Eduard option only trumps this if you must have rivets on the skin.   There is some discrepancies with their fuselage length and cockpit position.   Will they fix this upon their new release - unknown.   There are a couple other brands with slated 1/48 Emil releases, Wingsy Kits and WingTech (Dragon brand), though may not be out in time for the GB time frame.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack really helpful.

 

Just to clarify (as you can tell I’m no expert!) with regards the size and xtradecal 24’’ and 30’’ do they refer to the width or height as per your diagrams? 
 

in this example I’d use the xtradecal 24”?

 

or if it’s height need to find sone 35” letters ?

 

apologies if it seems a bone question !

[JackG]

I believe aftermarket decals refer only to the height of the codes.   There does appear to be 35" available at Hannants,

 but the packaging itself only displays 24 and 16 inches??

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CA48077?result-token=ORzWj

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by JackG

[Ozzy]

On 29/05/2020 at 11:27, Tim Moff said:

Just looking at decals and Sqn Code sizes - I managed to get the Xtradecal set of MSG codes, 24'' and 30'' - comparing them to the Hurricane and Spitfire 1 box decals, looks like 30'' for Hurricanes and 24'' for Spitfires are generally the best? I know its a can of worms so do not want to open one, research shows that each aircraft was different...am looking at 66 Sqn and 609 Sqn for Spits - any advice welcome and 249 Sqn for the Hurricane!

 

Managed to get a copy of Bombsites over England for my 110. Will be using @Stew Dapple 's great 1/72 build as a hand rail for my build as I have the same decals in 1/48 - may be some PMs on the way!

 

 

Just realised that my Eduard 109 does not have a pilot - if anyone has any 1/48 WW2 German pilots sitting in a scraps box furloughed, I could put one to use! Tempted by another 109, the Tamiya looks good, as does the new Airfix offering - any views on the best one?

I’ve got a spare Fujimi 1/48 pilot figure out of the 110 I’m building, I’ve picked up a white metal Adolf Galland figure for the front. PM me your address and I’ll pop him in the post.

[PeterB]

AFAIK the official instruction for the use of Squadron Codes stated that they should be 48" high unless the size of the fuselage made that impossible, in which case they should be the largest size that would fit. It also stated that the 2 letters for the Squadron and the single letter for the individual aircraft should be on either side of the roundel, but that they could go either way round. Finally it stated that they should be in "Grey paint" with a stores ref that is generally accepted as "Sea Grey, Medium) though they seem to have ranged from quite a dark grey to almost white if profiles and decal manufacturers are to be believed.

 

The most common sizes on single engine fighters were probably 36" and 30" though having said that, with their deeper fuselages some Hurricanes may have managed to use 48" though most, together with a few Spits such as those of 610 squadron seem to have used 36". I believe most Spits had 30" but some had 24" ones. As ever you need to check with pictures of the machine you intend to model.

 

As to the underside paint and the size and placement of roundels I could go on for hours having built a batch of 3 Spit, 3 Hurris and a Defiant a year or so back to use up the Xtradecal BoB RAF sheet so I did a lot of research. At the start of 1940 the black/white scheme was in force, possibly with aluminium fuselage unders on some but in about June (without looking it up) an instruction was made to change to Sky which was a new colour and stock was initially low. Until it became available various stock shades such as Sky Blue (2 shades, pale Air Ministry Sky Blue and also BS381 (1930) No 1 aka Duck Egg Blue) , AM Sky Grey and Eau de Nil BS381 No 16 aka Duck Egg Green, were allegedly used or else attempts were made to mix Sky which had been described as Duck Egg Blue in the instruction. By the end of the battle Sky was more readily available and replacement planes at least would probably have been in this colour.  I don't believe the Type "S" paints were introduced until later. At least that is my interpretation based on various books - I may be wrong! There was also quite a bit of variation in the size, style and location of the various roundels and fin flashes but I won't go into that other than to note that the instruction that introduced Sky undersides also removed underwing roundels, though they were re-introduced later.

 

Anyway, I also bought the XtradecaL Luftwaffe BoB sheet so I will try and join in with a few Bf109 (E3, E4 and E4B), the odd Ju87, Do 17, and maybe a Ju88 and He 111 - depends how I get on with the 3 other GB I have just started!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited May 31, 2020 by PeterB

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

The most common sizes on single engine fighters were probably 36" and 30" though having said that, with their deeper fuselages some Hurricanes may have managed to use 48"

40 inch, 32 squadron after June 1940  (there is a Battle of France shot showing smaller codes)

1 hour ago, PeterB said:

though most, together with a few Spits such as those of 610 squadron seem to have used 36". I believe most Spits had 30" but some had 24" ones. As ever you need to check with pictures of the machine you intend to model.

 

 

On 29/05/2020 at 11:27, Tim Moff said:

Just looking at decals and Sqn Code sizes - I managed to get the Xtradecal set of MSG codes, 24'' and 30'' - comparing them to the Hurricane and Spitfire 1 box decals, looks like 30'' for Hurricanes and 24'' for Spitfires are generally the best? I know its a can of worms so do not want to open one, research shows that each aircraft was different...am looking at 66 Sqn and 609 Sqn for Spits - any advice welcome and 249 Sqn for the Hurricane!

 

RAF Codes, especially from this era are not a can of worms, just that there was only the requirement for them,  they do not even have a specified running order,  (a challenge in itself finding pics of both sides ) with an impossible to implement official size, hand painted at unit level without any official 'font' 

As such the Xtradecal sheets are nearly useless if you want to match a photo.  

 

If you are asking about specific squadrons, or aircraft, start a thread in the ww2 section and ask on a case by case basis, you are looking at 3 squadrons,  I know of a few photos of each,  and specific decals sheets for a 66 sq plane and 609 sq, and 'best guess'  ones for Nicholsons 249 Sq plane.

 

Combined with a distinct lack of period photos, due to security, you are left with a limited selection of well documented schemes,  or some careful detective work combined leading to a 'best guess' for anything else.  

For some very interesting research on early Spitfires, the pdf of instructions to the Fundekals sheet is well worth a read

http://www.fundekals.com/spitfiresPart2.html

 

HTH

[PeterB]

34 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

40 inch, 32 squadron after June 1940  (there is a Battle of France shot showing smaller codes)

 

 

Hi Troy,

 

That makes more sense. One of the most significant variations from the norm that I have seen is small, probably 25" over and under wing roundels on a few Spits. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was a variation peculiar to planes which passed throuigh one particular MU but I can't find the article at the moment. Certainly Hannants included one on their BoB sheet. The underwing roundels were right out at the wingtips.

 

Pete

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, PeterB said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was a variation peculiar to planes which passed throuigh one particular MU but I can't find the article at the moment.

This got discussed very recently  by @lasermonkey  who posted up scans from a early 80's model mag on the subject.  

I'll add in the link if I can find it. 

There is a lot of information about on the subject but it's scattered about, I'd not heard of this specific detail about a certain MU.

EDIT 

It was in relation to some 609    602 Sq Spitfires.   I'll go on a search later if someone doesn't pitch in first.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234990185-spitfire-mki-x4382-from-no602-squadron-with-wavy-leading-edge-camo/

 

[PeterB]

Thanks Troy,

 

As that is one of the few copies of SAM I don't have I must have read it somewhere else but it certainly confirms the under the wingtip small roundels.  Does not explain the ones on top of the wings though, which look the same sort of size as what we call type B introduced on the fuselage at the same time the type A1 on the upper wings were changed to Type B at around the start of the war. In fact the article highlights the fact that there were far more "MU Specials" that I knew of, at least as far as underwing roundels go. The small upper wing B type could I suppose be a variation on the way the A1 were overpainted. Some, perhaps the majority seem to have had the white overpainted with red and the yellow outer ring with blue, but I believe some yellow rings were painted out in camo colours making the roundel a bit smaller whilst the small one I refer to almost looks like they painted over the blue in camo colours as well, and the white in blue if you see what I mean.

 

Definitely a complicated subject so photos are vital.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited June 1, 2020 by PeterB

[lasermonkey]

46 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Thanks Troy,

 

As that is one of the few copies of SAM I don't have I must have read it somewhere else but it certainly confirms the under the wingtip small roundels.  Does not explain the ones on top of the wings though, which look the same sort of size as what we call type B introduced on the fuselage at the same time the type A1 on the upper wings were changed to Type B at around the start of the war. In fact the article highlights the fact that there were far more "MU Specials" that I knew of, at least as far as underwing roundels go. The small upper wing B type could I suppose be a variation on the way the A1 were overpainted. Some, perhaps the majority seem to have had the white overpainted with red and the yellow outer ring with blue, but I believe some yellow rings were painted out in camo colours making the roundel a bit smaller whilst the small one I refer to almost looks like they painted over the blue in camo colours as well, and the white in blue if you see what I mean.

 

Definitely a complicated subject so photos are vital.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

The upperwing roundel types and sizes are discussed in the main text of the article, as they were a permanent fixture (unlike the underwing roundels) and a standard was settled on far earlier. The upperwing roundel size really depends on when the aircraft was built,  i.e. which batch. If you know the serial number, you can probably narrow it down. Otherwise, you may have to go with photographic evidence.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Graham Boak]

Sky was not that new a colour, having been in use on Blenheims since the turn of the year.  What stocks were available is another question, but certainly some and there seems no evidence of factories using anything other than Sky on new aircraft, so you are only looking at those already in service.  On the other hand, the main MU supplying paint did not recognise Sky until late November...  Whilst enjoying the possible options raised for modelling, I would be particularly doubtful of more than a handful in "Eau de Nil" as this colour was never available in aircraft-quality paints.  Opinions differ.  Odd things do happen, but generally in the lack of direct evidence doubt the use of anything other than standard colours applied to Ministry (or other Headquarters) rules.  Boring I know.