Battle of Britain 80th GB Chat

[Black Knight]

On 03/02/2020 at 11:47, Heather Kay said:

Folks, don’t forget Bomber and Coastal Commands, and the Fleet Air Arm to an extent, were very active during the Battle period. Just sayin'… 

and don't forget the RAF Marine Branch

afair The Airfix RAF Air Sea Rescue Launch comes with markings for a boat used during the BoB

[JohnT]

Reading through the posts and wondering - if one was going very left field something comes to my mind about Tiger Moths fitted with bomb racks as anti invasion measures and Lysanders on ASR duties. Not sure if either fits with the period or maybe the spirit of the GB though. Just chucking the ramblings out there for consideration 

And if one gives the benefit of any doubt as to the intent of Sgt. Bruce Hancock then an Avro Anson might be added to the  list

 

full story from August 1940 here

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/141383

[PeterB]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:47 AM, Heather Kay said:

Folks, don’t forget Bomber and Coastal Commands, and the Fleet Air Arm to an extent, were very active during the Battle period. Just sayin'… 

Hi Heather,

So perhaps I will try and do the Italeri He 111 and the ex Frog Di 17Z as well - depends how much time I have in between other builds etc.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[MattG]

I'd love to join in with this too if I may!  I hope to fill some gaps in my Battle of Britain collection with this group build. I have Revell's new 1/72 Ju88A-1 on pre-order but I hope to do at least two kits.

 

On 2/3/2020 at 10:47 PM, Heather Kay said:

Folks, don’t forget Bomber and Coastal Commands, and the Fleet Air Arm to an extent, were very active during the Battle period. Just sayin'… 

I totally agree with Heather's comment but thought I'd double check the scope of the group build first.  How about a Bomber Command Blenheim IV from the raids on the invasion ports in September 1940, or a Coastal Command Hudson?  Alternatively, I could always build another Spitfire......

 

In any case I'm really looking forward to this!

 

Matt

[Erwin]

On the matter of possible builds.

 

When I hear or read " BoB" , I realy only think about the fighters going after the German bombers.

I know Bomber Command and the others played a great part too.

 

But for me it are the Spitfires and Hurricanes that are iconic and stand for the BoB.

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Erwin

[Heather Kay]

4 minutes ago, Erwin said:

But for me it are the Spitfires and Hurricanes of Fighter Command that are iconic for the BoB

Iconic, yes, and part of the mythologising of the battle. It’s something that bugs the heck out of me, but then I’m not going to try and stop you building what you want.  

[Erwin]

11 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

Iconic, yes, and part of the mythologising of the battle. It’s something that bugs the heck out of me, but then I’m not going to try and stop you building what you want.  

I was't trying to say that we should only be allowed to build Spitfires and Hurricanes.

 

Besides the 1/24 th Airfix Hurricane,I shall most likely build the B-P Defiant too.

And something Luftwaffe.

 

I plan to make this my "big GB" of the year.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Erwin

[Ozzy]

prop blur ordered, is it July yet?

 

[vppelt68]

It looks like Revell just solved my problem of "what to build in this GB?" https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/RV4972

 

EDIT: It must then be a KG 30 mount of Peter Wilhelm Stahl, a rare survivor among the Kampfflieger and a good author too!

 

EDIT 2: Which means I plan to build "them all" in 2020; a Do 17, a Ju 88 and a He 111. The classic Luftwaffe twins

 

 

[Ray_W]

I'm in and looking forward to this Group Build very much. Currently in the planning stage. Definitely a 1/48 "Dog Fight Double" with two of the main contenders - Hurricane and He 111. Now the fun of the research, whose kit (none in the stash) and which aircraft markings. Hopefully two aircraft with a joint story.

 

 

[Greg Law]

On 05/02/2020 at 09:20, JohnT said:

Reading through the posts and wondering - if one was going very left field something comes to my mind about Tiger Moths fitted with bomb racks as anti invasion measures and Lysanders on ASR duties. Not sure if either fits with the period or maybe the spirit of the GB though. Just chucking the ramblings out there for consideration 

And if one gives the benefit of any doubt as to the intent of Sgt. Bruce Hancock then an Avro Anson might be added to the  list

 

full story from August 1940 here

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/141383

Yes Tiger Moths fitted with bombers are very relevant. The first book  Battle of Britain book (Battle of Britain the narrow Margin By Derek Wood with Derek Dempster) Has this photo in it of such a plane.

I already have the kit ordered and am happy to here it has been remoulded by Airfix which is the course of the release.

 

 

[Greg Law]

I'm checking if a Nightfighter Defiant used in the Bliz in from December 1940/February 1941 would be acceptable.

[Rabbit Leader]

41 minutes ago, Greg Law said:

Yes Tiger Moths fitted with bombers are very relevant. The first book  Battle of Britain book (Battle of Britain the narrow Margin By Derek Wood with Derek Dempster) Has this photo in it of such a plane.

I’d say that type C1 fuselage roundel would place this photo post July 1942, Greg. Tiger Moths would certainly be relevant, however I wouldn’t go by that photograph as an adequate reference for this BoB period. 
 

Cheers.. Dave 

[Stew Dapple]

3 hours ago, Greg Law said:

I'm checking if a Nightfighter Defiant used in the Bliz in from December 1940/February 1941 would be acceptable.

Sorry Greg, that would be outside the official time-frame of the BoB, might want to save it for the next Nightfighters Group Build though  

 

Cheers,  

 

Stew

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Can the Airfix 72nd Defiant be used as is for Battle of Britain ? Or would i need to change codes ? 

[Stew Dapple]

12 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Can the Airfix 72nd Defiant be used as is for Battle of Britain ? Or would i need to change codes ? 

 

I believe the option for L7013/PSoU of 264 Squadron in the kit would be acceptable:

 

"On the 6th August Percy and Smythe were on Convoy Patrol in Defiant L7013, taking off at 1140 and returning at 1255, without any engagements with the Luftwaffe. The following day there was a similar patrol between 1550 and 1725, in L7025, when the east coast convoys were attacked, but again no interceptions were made by 'B' Flight."

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Beazer]

would a BP Defiant from the Polish 307 Night Fighter Squadron be acceptable for this build?
 

After its formal formation in Blackpool on 24 August 1940[2] No. 307 squadron was assembled at RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey on 5 September 1940 as a night fighter unit, flying the Boulton Paul Defiant turret-fighter and took up residence at RAF Jurby, Isle of Man

 

I believe it’s safe to say that the possibility exists that they may have been involved in the defence of Britain and I’m crossing my fingers I don’t have to scramble for a Dornier.

 

Defiant N3437 ‘EW-K’ with Special Night lower surfaces and some areas of the fuselage, April 1941. (Illustration by M J Laird)

In the second half of 1940 the Luftwaffe switched to a night offensive against England and more nightfighter squadrons were needed. At that time large numbers of Polish airmen were waiting to be deployed at the Polish Depot in Blackpool and, from them, the first crews for 307 (Polish) Squadron were drawn. Its first base was RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey and personnel began to arrive on 10 September 1940. S/Ldr Pietraszkiewicz became 307’s first Commander with S/Ldr Tomlinson attached as his British equivalent. From the British high command perspective Tomlinson (like all RAF S/Ldrs posted to Polish fighter squadrons in 1940) was the Officer Commanding, with Pietraszkiewicz only acting as an advisor. Only later, as the Polish Squadrons proved their worth did the RAF accept that the Poles were capable of commanding themselves. This was a less than satisfactory arrangement, from the Polish perspective.
Although enthusiastic at being posted to 307 Squadron, the first pilots were disappointed to learn that they would fly Boulton Paul Defiants, the first of which arrived on 14 September, 1940.

A 307 Squadron armourer working on the turret armament of Defiant N3437. After limited success over Dunkirk, the Defiants were quickly relegated to the night fighter role. This machine wears a scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth with black applied to its lower surfaces and parts of the upper surfaces. (M. Payne)

 

A Ground crew member with Defiant N3437 ‘EW-K’. Note the ultra-matt Special Night on parts of the aircraft. N3437 was delivered to 307 Sqn in February 1941. (M. Payne)

Being equipped with Defiants was only part of the problem, with some of the pilots considering night flying too risky, with minimal chances to meet the enemy. There were tense exchanges when gunners felt relegated to bit-part players; many being ex-navigators who had considered themselves aircraft captains in the pre-war Polish Air Force. Most of the disgruntled pilots were experienced fighter pilots and they demanded to be transferred to day-fighter units. Their wish was granted and almost the entire roster was changed overnight with S/Ldr Benz replacing Pietraszkiewicz. Most of this replacement group were instructors from various flying schools, ferry pilots and so on. Furthermore, many were familiar with night flying and the majority were well educated, passionate flyers and Air Force volunteers. These new men helped to heal the rifts in the unit and all personnel quickly melded into a harmonious group.

 

 

[Stew Dapple]

2 hours ago, Beazer said:

would a BP Defiant from the Polish 307 Night Fighter Squadron be acceptable for this build?

 

Sorry, but as I understand it 307 were not operational until December 1940, so would be outside the timeframe for the Battle.

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Black Knight]

From the history of 307 on the RAFWEB site

"Formed at Kirton-in-Lindsey on 5 September 1940 as a Polish night fighter unit, equipped with Defiants.  Following a work-up period it moved to Jurby in the Isle of Man and began operations in December." 

So.although not active, they were in training.

 

I've also remembered that Tiger Moths and Lysanders and other light aircraft, mostly impressed ones were fitted with gas delivery systems. Trials were held over beaches to see if they could deliver nerve gas which would have been used on invading Germans. In the trials flour was used on British troops on exercise. The trials were held in June and July 1940, the aircraft held at readiness during the summer and autumn and the aircraft were not relieved of their spraying equipment until spring 1941. The British held and were prepared to use chemical and biological weapons. The Germans had the same

The container for the gas was in the rear cockpit of a Tiger Moth with the spraying equipment as tubes under the lower wing. Rather like a crop spraying arrangement. afair the gas container on the Lysander was like the auxiliary fuel tank carried under the fuselage with a pipe network attached to it and the fuselage giving a narrower spray width.

[mick b]

7 hours ago, Beazer said:

would a BP Defiant from the Polish 307 Night Fighter Squadron be acceptable for this build?
 

After its formal formation in Blackpool on 24 August 1940[2] No. 307 squadron was assembled at RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey on 5 September 1940 as a night fighter unit, flying the Boulton Paul Defiant turret-fighter and took up residence at RAF Jurby, Isle of Man

 

I believe it’s safe to say that the possibility exists that they may have been involved in the defence of Britain and I’m crossing my fingers I don’t have to scramble for a Dornier.

 

Defiant N3437 ‘EW-K’ with Special Night lower surfaces and some areas of the fuselage, April 1941. (Illustration by M J Laird)

In the second half of 1940 the Luftwaffe switched to a night offensive against England and more nightfighter squadrons were needed. At that time large numbers of Polish airmen were waiting to be deployed at the Polish Depot in Blackpool and, from them, the first crews for 307 (Polish) Squadron were drawn. Its first base was RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey and personnel began to arrive on 10 September 1940. S/Ldr Pietraszkiewicz became 307’s first Commander with S/Ldr Tomlinson attached as his British equivalent. From the British high command perspective Tomlinson (like all RAF S/Ldrs posted to Polish fighter squadrons in 1940) was the Officer Commanding, with Pietraszkiewicz only acting as an advisor. Only later, as the Polish Squadrons proved their worth did the RAF accept that the Poles were capable of commanding themselves. This was a less than satisfactory arrangement, from the Polish perspective.
Although enthusiastic at being posted to 307 Squadron, the first pilots were disappointed to learn that they would fly Boulton Paul Defiants, the first of which arrived on 14 September, 1940.

A 307 Squadron armourer working on the turret armament of Defiant N3437. After limited success over Dunkirk, the Defiants were quickly relegated to the night fighter role. This machine wears a scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth with black applied to its lower surfaces and parts of the upper surfaces. (M. Payne)

 

A Ground crew member with Defiant N3437 ‘EW-K’. Note the ultra-matt Special Night on parts of the aircraft. N3437 was delivered to 307 Sqn in February 1941. (M. Payne)

Being equipped with Defiants was only part of the problem, with some of the pilots considering night flying too risky, with minimal chances to meet the enemy. There were tense exchanges when gunners felt relegated to bit-part players; many being ex-navigators who had considered themselves aircraft captains in the pre-war Polish Air Force. Most of the disgruntled pilots were experienced fighter pilots and they demanded to be transferred to day-fighter units. Their wish was granted and almost the entire roster was changed overnight with S/Ldr Benz replacing Pietraszkiewicz. Most of this replacement group were instructors from various flying schools, ferry pilots and so on. Furthermore, many were familiar with night flying and the majority were well educated, passionate flyers and Air Force volunteers. These new men helped to heal the rifts in the unit and all personnel quickly melded into a harmonious group.

 

 

Hi Beazer, 

 

From where is your text copied from as I have a particular interest in 307 whilst at Jurby .

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Beazer]

4 hours ago, mick b said:

Hi Beazer, 

 

From where is your text copied from as I have a particular interest in 307 whilst at Jurby .

 

cheers

 

Mike

http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/printer_polands-nightfighters.shtml

 

6 hours ago, Black Knight said:

So.although not active, they were in training.

 

Yes Black Knight, Even late to the party I’m sure the express purpose was in the assistance of the immediate threat.

9 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

 

Sorry, but as I understand it 307 were not operational until December 1940, so would be outside the timeframe for the Battle.

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

If that’s the way she goes then I’ll just find something German as I’ve been doing too many Spits and Hurricanes lately and was kinda looking forward to the Defiant(in foreign service).  

[stevej60]

Look's like the search is on for the Classic Airframes Fiat Falco which has BoB schemes might be nice to step back up to 1/48 scale for a build.

[Wez]

6 hours ago, stevej60 said:

Look's like the search is on for the Classic Airframes Fiat Falco which has BoB schemes might be nice to step back up to 1/48 scale for a build.

PM inbound

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Ive asked this question once before up in aviation, but I cant remember the answer. Did the Vichy air force fly missions in the Battle of Britain, If so what aircraft types ? 
 

Dennis

[Graham Boak]

Vichy was in the south of France, well away from the battle area, and would have been unable to take part even if they had wanted too, which they didn't.  Remember that Vichy was effectively neutral, and not an active participant in the war until attacked by Britain in actions such as Oran, Syria and Madagascar.  Even after this they did not participate in any actions against the UK nor stray into the German military's area of operations.