Grey Beema Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On a similar theme, I’ve asked this before and didn’t really get anywhere, so here goes again... For my BoB GB entry I intend to build one of the 213 Squadron Hurricanes flown by SLt Denis Jeram. I have already built a Martlet IV flown by him in Operation Torch to his fifth and a shared victory and would now like to build one of his earlier aircraft. Denis Jeram was seconded to 213 Sqn RAF on 11.07.1940 and took part in the Battle of Britain. Jeram made the following claims, date and the aircraft letter is recorded in 213 Squadron ORB. 11.08.40 Ju88 Destroyed, Ju88 Probable. Hawker Hurricane I (Serial Unknown)/AK*U 12.08.40 Me110 Destroyed. Hurricane I P3585/AK*Q (1300-1315) 15.08.40 Me110 Destroyed. Hawker Hurricane I (Serial Unknown)/AK*W (1300-1315) 15.09.40 Do17 Destroyed. Hawker Hurricane I (Serial Unknown)/AK*U I would like to build AK°U and I understand that AK°U flown on 11.08.40 and AK°U flown 15.09.40 might not be the same aircraft but I cannot find serials for either aircraft. If anyone in the Britmodeller Beehive has a serial number for AK°U at those dates (or close to) I would love to see it/them. Failing that I would do P3585/AK°Q flown on 15.08.40 however, I would like the usual questions answered - did 213 use AK°Q on the port and starboard side or AK°Q to port Q°AK to starboard? I assume Aircraft letters in Grey, Xtradecals will be my friend. Photos of 213 don’t seem that common, photos during BoB seem to be less so. If anyone has a source please let me know... Thanks in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 For Denis Jeram found this killboard, but not sure what the "V" stands for adjacent to aircraft type (Hurricane) flown - fuselage code? http://www.cieldegloire.fr/002_raf_jeram_d_m.php Have to head out, but will check later some other possible sources... regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 That does seem the likeliest answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Checking a couple August volumes (September issues not released yet) from the recent Combat Archives publication, they only have worth noting a conflicting serial with what was posted above: Aug. 11 P3585 AK@M flown by Snowden Blue 1, safe landing after engine set fire by enemy action For codes order of placement, there is a pre-war movie with a short clip showing starboard side, so will assume it continued that way in 1940: regards, Jack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 4 hours ago, JackG said: Checking a couple August volumes (September issues not released yet) from the recent Combat Archives publication, they only have worth noting a conflicting serial with what was posted above: Aug. 11 P3585 AK@M flown by Snowden Blue 1, safe landing after engine set fire by enemy action For codes order of placement, there is a pre-war movie with a short clip showing starboard side, so will assume it continued that way in 1940: regards, Jack Thanks Jack, Thats P3585 chalked off.. It’s a pity there isn’t an online Hurricane register as there is for Spitfires, it would make this type of research much easier. Let’s make the assumption that the starboard side markings should be AK°U then. Unless someone can show different.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I think P3585 is still a possibility as you have him listed flying it the next day. The action on the 11th occurred between 10.15 and 11.15, so assuming the fire damage was not extensive, that gives plenty of time to have the air frame ready for the following day. Only question is which source gives the correct individual fuselage code? The other thing considering the codes is their height. The pre-war photo combined with the examples found when the squadron was later in the desert, show a more average size was used, likely 24 inch. Artwork, including that found in the Combat Archives series, display a much taller height approaching the roundel height (35 inches). I've not seen any 1940 photos of 213, so it would be nice to known the factual evidence that inspired these illustrations. regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 11 hours ago, JackG said: r codes order of placement, there is a pre-war movie with a short clip showing starboard side, so will assume it continued that way in 1940: Is this 213 sq? Codes were changed at out break of war. Not time to check right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 There is a listing here of pre-war codes. Although 213 is listed twice (GJ from 1.39 - 4.39), the AK codes are only attributed to them. You yourself also identified the movie clip as 213: regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 hours ago, JackG said: I think P3585 is still a possibility as you have him listed flying it the next day. The action on the 11th occurred between 10.15 and 11.15, so assuming the fire damage was not extensive, that gives plenty of time to have the air frame ready for the following day. Only question is which source gives the correct individual fuselage code? Hi Jack, I have just re-check my sources. The aircraft letters come from the 213 Squadron ORB Record of Events (btw down load is free of charge during lock down). Btw on 12.08.40 Sgt Wilks flew ‘M’ AK°Q serial number P3585 comes from Royal Navy Aces of World War 2 by Andrew Thomas. Page 20. I am not sure of his source for that gem of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) Yes, the ORB Record of Events - was looking at those the other day. Just realized now that the letter in front of the pilot's name is the individual code letter. It is frustrating that the odd time a serial is provided, the fuselage code is not included. The same archive site does give P3585 for Snowden, and it also shows letter M for the Hurricane on that day 11/8/40 (page 6). http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8393705 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1 am4502807 The Wilkes entry on the 12th of August, Combat Archives vol. 3 has him gone missing, and only provide the serial P2854. Now this Hurricane is also lettered M - see page 7 entry continued from above. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16471801 regards, Jack Edited June 2, 2020 by JackG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, JackG said: Yes, the ORB Record of Events - was looking at those the other day. Just realized now that the letter in front of the pilot's name is the individual code letter. It is frustrating that the odd time a serial is provided, the fuselage code is not included. The Wilkes entry on the 12th of August, Combat Archives vol. 3 has him gone missing, and only provide the serial P2854. regards, Jack On 12.08.40 the ORB gives no serial for Wilkes but gives the Aircraft letter as ‘M’ and is marked as “Missing”... If P2854 was AK°M on 12.08.40 did it replace P3585/AK°M after the engine fire on 11.08.40? Or has a reference somewhere got their numbers mixed up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 That was something I considered, the extent of the engine fire had the hurricane pulled out of service. But usually a replacement air frame already has it's own individual code - would the squadron bothered to erase it and put M on it? What about the repaired P3585, could it have been given Q - not likely either since that letter was flying on the 11th by a Sgt. Dunscombe. So it does seem there is an error somewhere. regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Some wonderful research going on here, and previous page. It all needs recording somewhere. I’ll bookmark it for future reference. On 6/2/2020 at 7:51 AM, Grey Beema said: It’s a pity there isn’t an online Hurricane register as there is for Spitfires, it would make this type of research much easier. Do you know the link to the online Spitfire register? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 1602 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 I’d like to sign up for this group build please @Procopius My plan would be to build the new tool Tamiya 1:48 Spitfire in the markings of a 54 Squadron machine (R6893 KL-T flown by Colin Gray). Steve 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Moff Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Interesting video of 66 Sqn at Gravesend, says 1940, not which month... some good references - yellow gas area thingie on the wing, sqn codes size, and positioning, red gun area paint, not sure if the spinners are red etc....still amazes me that all wore what is now No2 Service dress (called that in the Army anyway) as working dress.... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Tim Moff said: Interesting video of 66 Sqn at Gravesend, says 1940, not which month... Fascinating, thanks Tim. Needs watching a few times to take in all the details. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 7 hours ago, Tim Moff said: Interesting video of 66 Sqn at Gravesend, says 1940, not which month... some good references - yellow gas area thingie on the wing, sqn codes size, and positioning, red gun area paint, not sure if the spinners are red etc there are some famous photos of 66Sq a series showing rearming, I'd not be surprised if stills taken at same time. (can have a search later if you want to see them?) note at https://youtu.be/x1_aQMzPe2c?t=289 X4478, LZ-H http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p015.html Quote X4478 Ia 1154 EA MIII FF 17-9-40 9MU 19-9-40 72S 20-9-40 66S 23-9-40 92S 2-12-40 65S 4-12-40 145S 19-1-41 118S 3-3-41 66S 9-4-41 501S 25-4-41 53OTU 21-5-41 43Grp 20-6-41 AST 5MU 129S 16-8-41 58OTU 15-9-41 37MU so film after 23 Sep thanks for posting the clip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Moff Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: there are some famous photos of 66Sq a series showing rearming, I'd not be surprised if stills taken at same time. (can have a search later if you want to see them?) note at https://youtu.be/x1_aQMzPe2c?t=289 X4478, LZ-H http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p015.html so film after 23 Sep thanks for posting the clip thanks Troy I found these ones on the site if they are the ones on the thread below. I’m looking at a pilot called Crelin Bodie, records have him belly landing X4321 LZ-F. Can’t find any actual pics so will have to do some further research and use some inferred references. One of my close friends, who I served with in the Parachute Regiment and elsewhere for 26 years (he’s still serving!) explained that he was his mother’s cousin - he was also from Suffolk, as I am. So I plan to build it for him - with a base and some info, hopefully be a nice surprise! Edited June 3, 2020 by Tim Moff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krow113 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) In. Edited June 6, 2020 by krow113 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 Good morning I would like to build the Arma Hobby Hurricane Mk 1 in the markings of the aircraft flown by S/L Robert Stanford Tuck in September 1940 .. I am looking for information and photos of this aircraft thank you for your help .. Patrice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanjuro Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) This one? https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-257Sqn-DT.html Edited June 5, 2020 by Sanjuro 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Concerning 213 Squadron fuselage code size, have received a response from WingLeader publications. One of the editors informed me about their illustrations, that the fuselage codes height was based on an early 1939 photo. The letters were definitely taller than the roundel. so there is some proof that at one time they were quite tall, so that is what they went with. regards, Jack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krow113 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Still in. Would like to change my entry to this fig: I had a thread here regarding rag-wing BoB Hurricanes and it seems to have disappeared! In the end the fig and the Hurricane model will have interlocking basework anyway , they are intended to be the same display. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme H Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Only just discovered this one lurking in the shadows, my memory is really dodgy these days, but don't remember this at all, so I had to go look at the GB calendar to see it's starts in a month. so I have maybe some Spitfires and Hurricanes, and even a Knifesmiths both single and twin engine, I'm fairly certain I have a Hasegawa 'einkel, sure I can find something. and for decals the Southern Expo decal sheet from a lot of years ago when I made it to Hornchurch back in ought six, good days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Dapple Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 6 hours ago, Graeme H said: the Southern Expo decal sheet from a lot of years ago when I made it to Hornchurch back in ought six, good days I think I remember that one, does it have all three versions of Al Deere's "Kiwi"? Cheers, Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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